Discussion: Potential Isk Sink

Ha. This is a ballsy proposal.

I really don’t think its going to happen though. Huge pita and is effectively another form of clone updating. And even if it was the right solution now, down the line when it’s done it’s job and there is less isk in the system, it will continue to drain isk in the game. Until we are all VERY risk averse.

I think the best course is to keep nerfing null income or make null more dangerous.

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Or both. People go on and on about the carebears in Hisec, about the hordes of Alpha bots, about the lousy farmers etc… but I honestly feel that it is the current state of null sec that is driving a lot of the problem issues in EVE. ISK farming, overly safe play, huge established alliances making sure that nothing bad happens to them (except the very occasional major war)… that’s not EVE.

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Those transactions fees have existed since day 1 and there are ways to reduce them via standings and skills

And “why” does it need to cost them anything exactly? ISK isn’t that hard to make and nothing seems that expensive, is there something you’re specifically worried about newbros not being able to afford? T1 hulls seem to be selling at about build cost anyway, why exactly does someone else having trillions of ISK affect you directly?

Again, why would this need to exist in the first place

Because i’m not really seeing a “problem”, things that are expensive are supposed to be expensive, what exactly is the “average” player unable to buy that they actually “need” to buy?

You DO need to actually justify why such a pointless system would need to exist in the first place, i don’t see what purpose this would actually serve, people are always going to be richer than you and all this system would do is make people buy items with that ISK to trade instead of keeping the ISK liquid itself which doesn’t change anything at all

And then you get people sitting in NPC corps again, which is against what CCP actually wants :stuck_out_tongue:

I would also strongly consider bumping up the market trading fees for EVE. Market trading is a huge activity, it is all done with near-perfect safety, it is highly profitable, and it has skills to reduce the impact of fees, as well as fee-reduced structures.

I would probably consider doubling the current fee structure, and making part of that a non-reduceable, or only partially reduceable, Concord or Interbus NPC fee that cannot be alleviated even by player owned trading markets. That would create another major ISK sink, the cost would be born only by those who are profiting from that activity, it would reduce the effectiveness and profitability of market bots that can win on the slimmest margins, and it would further separate Alpha traders/bots (with low skills) from Omega traders, who could have the skills to offset some of this.

There would be short term screaming from the big market traders, but you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few legs.

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I should have mentioned it, but I didn’t want to expand to not potentially derail this valueable thread. *cough*

CONCORD tax works on an individual level. The only ones, who should be getting it for free, should be new players until they’ve reached a certain state, which CCP can detect using the data gathered by the Activity Tracker.

I’m still not seeing a valid reason for this tax to exist in the first place, why does me having trillions of ISK matter to your gaming experience exactly? what are you expecting to buy that you cannot afford

That makes zero sense to me in the context of a CONCORD tax.

FTFY :slight_smile:

So far they’re doing a good job of it with the March patch notes.

You having trillions of isk doesn’t matter to me. What you do with that isk, however, can potentially have significant impacts.

On one hand, “market pvp” is certainly a thing and it certainly should be a thing. On the other, market manipulation can affect a dramatic number of players in a dramatic way broadly viewed as negative. Point in case, look at any of the plex market manipulations. While they drive the price down, people who buy plex earn less isk. When they drive the prices up, people who plex their accounts spend more isk. Lose/lose for everyone but the market manipulators.

By soaking up the isk, it removes a lot of that market manipulation… which again, there’s a fair argument that it’s just market pvp. Which is why this is a discussion and not a suggestion.

PLEX is a luxury item, it being super expensive is of little to no real concern for the average players as they shouldn’t be basing their entire lives around it

Got any actual meaningful examples that didn’t fix themselves in a fairly short time? because yes someone with trillions can affect the market, but the offshoot of that is that there are thousands of people willing to keep undercutting someone and numerous options to any useful item people can manipulate, if someone wants to spend trillions bumping the price of a BS by 50mil then so be it, but seeing as i can build those myself i’ll just buy the minerals and make it instead, most of the important markets can balance themselves and the PLEX market being wonky is just because its unlike other items, it can’t be produced, its value is always going to be all over the place and will, as a result of it being a legal way to buy ISK, likely just continue to get more expensive until demand drops, at which point it will balance itself out just like the other markets

So i’m not really seeing an issue with any actual items, not to mention the people making trillions of ISK aren’t going to notice you taking billions away from them so your net “problem” isn’t getting resolved either way and all you do is annoy other people who are seemingly losing ISK for no real reason other than it just existing in their wallets

Plex is a limited-supply commodity. If you want to choose some other limited supply item with combat application, feel free. You sound like a market dude so you’ll know what I’m talking about. You absolutely can’t manipulate the market with high supply items like T1 BS hulls. But you certainly can with injectors, plex, some faction gear, etc.

Which is absolutely a selling point. It soaks up isk and nobody’s going to really care that much. Remember, the dudes printing isk are adding to the cycle. There really aren’t very many ways for it to actually leave the cycle. That leads to inflation on limited supply items, which in turn creates a barrier to entry for the new players without much isk.

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… trying to tell me something, ey forum?

All of which is considered luxury, its like me complaining that bill gates should randomly lose money because he can afford to raise the price of limited production items and i can’t afford them, so unless there is an actual issue i’m not sure we need to change anything, not everything is supposed to be cheap to everybody

Except that the money disappearing does literally NOTHING to change the situation, someone with a trillion ISK losing 100bil isn’t going to matter one iota for the market, its not affecting anything just sitting in his wallet so removing it from his wallet will do literally nothing, if someone with 5 trillion in his wallet biomassed his character there would be absolutely no change to the market, because ISK in his wallet does nothing :stuck_out_tongue:

And why exactly should limited supply items be something new players should be worrying about? they are by definition new to the game, they have a lot more important things to worry about than not being able to buy stupidly cheap deadspace gear, and you’ll find that the actual thing making these expensive is the limited supply, its basic supply and demand, a small supply means a higher price, me having a trillion in my wallet does nothing to you unless i choose to spend it on something, if i choose to manipulate a luxury item then so be it, its not essential and it doesn’t actually affect anyone who should be worried about that item

Do you have an example of essential items that are out of the reach of new players? is there something vital to their ability to play that they are unable to afford?

Whether or not something is luxury is not a binary thing. Consider faction tank mods; there are many cases where doctrine fits use them. I can think of many times where a large fight has in fact wiped the market clean of all but the ones priced at 5b isk. It’s luxury depending on your use. Maybe you’re spending an extra 300m isk for that extra 5k buffer. Maybe you’re spending it to online all the modules in a fit that you have no say over.

Consider plex. Yes, it’s a luxury item to plex your account. Yes, it’s a luxury to buy and dump on the market. But at the end of the day, there are people who don’t have the money to play Eve (particularly in countries with poor exchange rates) and there are people who don’t have the time to grind isk. Killing this “luxury” is harmful because it makes them either play less or stop entirely. You can’t shoot people that don’t log on.

Multiply the effect across all of Eve. We have no data on the amount of isk floating around in wallets right now, but it has to be an astronomically high number. Even if you average it at 0.5%, that’s a real isk sink. The point of this is that the individual impact is trivial. The cumulative effect will definitely make an impact.

Manipulations are always temporary. Pump and dump, so to speak. Doctrine fits with faction mods are the perfect example. New players should not be excluded from a fleet because they can’t afford the buy-in. That’s how you lose new players.

The other thing to remember is the actual gameplay implications. Anchoring structures for banking purposes (kind of like HS markets are right now) would be a thing. Attracting players, defending so they don’t lose confidence.

If someone’s not paying attention, then all of a sudden they’ve got asset safety to deal with; that’ll be no small sum in null, and rather painful in a WH.

Structures become a lot more important when your liquid assets are also in them.

So just because your fits choose to use them they should be cheap? :stuck_out_tongue: all my shield doctrine fits use estamel invulns, CCPls make them super cheap kthx

Yeah that was sarcasm incase you missed it

Maybe you don’t have to fly with people who dictate that you need to buy expensive mods on fits :stuck_out_tongue:

While i can sympathise with people who may not want to grind for ISK, that doesn’t mean it has to be cheap, you’re essentially paying someone else in ISK for the time and money they spent getting that PLEX, its not supposed to be cheap, especially considering you’re paying nearly double the normal subscription cost to get 500 PLEX, just because they were “cheaper” in the past that doesn’t mean they were meant to be cheap, while it does suck for those who cannot afford to pay directly they do need to expect to pay for that with their own time

Except you’re missing the point, ISK in a wallet doesn’t affect you the price of items, demand from people buying them does, even if i had 99% of all of the ISK in the game in my own personal wallet, that wouldn’t affect the price of anything unless i choose to actually spend that ISK, and even then, supply and demand dictates the price, low supply and high demand means prices go up to the point that the economy refuses to pay the price asked, the reverse results in lower prices, the amount of ISK in the wallets of the super rich has no impact on your or my ability to pay 2bil for PLEX, taxing the rich does nothing to affect the rest of us

If your doctrines require you to be space rich then it kind of does, again its supply and demand, the supply of these items doesn’t meet the demand, so unless supply goes up then these fights will still wipe the market of these mods, and if they are cheaper it will be even easier to wipe the market, the supply won’t magically go up just because they are cheap, infact the reverse will happen, if i’m not making decent ISK from selling an item then i’m not going to go out of my way to get it, which means supply drops even more making it even easier to wipe the market if these mods are in high demand

Sarcasm or not, I want to make sure you realize that line members don’t decide what the doctrine fits are, or when they’re flown. They fly the fits they’re told to fly, when they’re told to fly them.

Maybe they aren’t expensive until some asshat decides to ■■■■ with the price?

As with all things, one decides if the price is worth the value. Point in case, plex unsurprisingly sells better when there’s a sale. If you deflate the value, the to isk ratio gets worse for the seller, and they elect not to spend for isk.

You’re right, people who don’t ■■■■ with the markets don’t ■■■■ with the markets. The reason you apply it to everyone is ff you take isk from everyone, it becomes harder to manipulate the market because there’s less wiggle room.

A-type small remote armor reps are cheap as ■■■■ (an example). Yet, I saw at one point a grand total of 5 on market for a billion isk each likely because someone was ■■■■■■■ with the prices and just buying everything else up. No intelligently designed doctrine is expensive… they’re designed to be welped. But when you design a doctrine around a module that’s cheap, and someone decides to inflate the price, you can’t just change the doctrine that hundreds or even thousands of players have.

No, but the line member does get to decide if they want to fly with an entity that is forcing them to spend money they don’t have

And maybe its not someone screwing with the price but the demand for said item from said doctrine bumping the price up, doesn’t matter how cheap a faction item is if you suddenly have hundreds of them being purchased then people are going to bump the price to take advantage of the market you yourself created with the doctrine

Or, as above, demand for the item outstripped supply, remember these things are not made by players directly, there is a number of jobs coming out of the oven in jita to replace the ones that are bought, you might not like that its harder to buy something but you are perfectly free to not fly those ships if you cannot afford them, as the first rule of EVE states “Don’t fly what you cannot afford to lose”

Well, you kind of can, thing is people don’t want to, but even then the solution is pretty simple, find a new less anal group to fly with

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