Enhancing Corporation Identity - and selling more SKIN's

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
1

Greetings, CSM people. I have a relatively simple inquiry to you today.

It appears to me, skin’s you create and make available as “Corporate Skins” are not actually that - just ‘regular’ Player-Made skins that are ONLY sold to the corporation you are in, and by looks of things, still permanent to the player that bought and applied it, regardless of if they stay in the corporation or not.

Here are my two concerns with that.

  1. If I wish to make a “uniform” for my corp in the way that matters - the physical look of the ships the people in my corporation/alliance flies - I will need to, should I wish to be completely thorough, cook up one skin for each ship the people in the corp could possibly fly, that’s also covered by the SKINr system.

  2. Once a player/corp leaves the corp/alliance they can still fly the skin(s) that ‘belong’ to that corp. It being the ‘corp colours’ is just a suggestion right now.
    What if we had a dedicated SKINr section for corp uniforms? We have one for structure painting - make one for ships in the corp.

A. They would apply only to your ships if you buy them and are a part of the corp/alliance. If you leave, they become deactivated, re-activated if you re-join the same corp/alliance. If you join another corp/alliance, they have their own you can buy if you wish to.

B. The cost of making them would either be very, very cheap due to their limited use-area, OR they would cost the same as the SKINr production we have now, only that if you make skins for the corp, you make a template, not individual skins, with the possible option to convert them to ‘regular’ skins should you like, prompting the need to make another template. That would allow someone shutting down a corp to ‘salvage’ the invested PLEX into the corp-skin by at least getting a universally usable item before they go.

C. The cost of the skin to the average member could be set to the cost of the materials. Cooking a frigate/cruiser skin in my testing was cheap on the material’s front, roughly 6 million in sequencers etc. IF you want to have a skin for every T1 frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser etc. etc. etc. that could get costly for the average rookie quick, but it’s something to strive for, the ability to fly the colour of the group you are in if you wish to - given the average player don’t mind earning ISK or plex for NES/market-bought skins I see no issue with this.

D. Finally, to make this very worth-while for CCP: Each corp-standard skin you might want to buy could cost 1 PLEX in addition to materials, making the value of selling NES skins, having players pay in PLEX to make skins, and now also having players use corp-limited skins a lucrative prospect, while still being quite affordable to the average player. It would drive up interest in buying PLEX from the store or earn up the ISK to buy it off the market from other players. The materials cost of a Frigate SKIN atm is around 6 million in my area - the average cost of a PLEX in my area is 6 million too. 12 million for a permanent (so long as you are in that corp) skin is highly affordable.

Did the work on bare-minimum costs to give every skin some simple colouring, left here to underscore my point:

Costing 25 PLEX minimum:
4 Corvettes (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
+
5 Shuttles (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/SoCT)
+
27 T1 Frigates (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/SoCT/TriC/EdenC)
12 Navy Frigates (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
33 T2 Frigates (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/TriC)
7 Faction Frigates (Guri/Sansha/Blood/Angel/Serp/SOE/Mordu)
+
1 T1 Mining Frigate (ORE)
+
2 T2 Mining Frigates (ORE)
+
10 T1 Destroyers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/SoCT/TriC)
4 Navy Destroyers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
9 T2 Destroyers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/TriC)
3 Faction Destroyers (Guri/Angel/Death)
+
14 T1 Haulers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/ORE/EdenC)
10 T2 Haulers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/EdenC)
+
3 T1 Mining Barges (ORE)
+
19 T1 Cruisers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/TriC/EdenC)
8 Navy Cruisers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
2 T2 Cruisers (TriC)
7 Faction Cruisers (Guri/Sansha/Blood/Angel/Serp/Mordu/SOE)
+
14 Battlecruisers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/TriC/SoCT)
8 Navy Battlecruisers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
3 Faction Battlecruisers (Guri/Angel/Death)
+
1 T1 Battleship (TriC)

This cost-bracket cuts between Navy and T2 cruisers, even Faction cruisers cost minimum 25. Odd, but I don’t make the rules.

*Side-note, Triglavian ships lack the ‘secondary’ slot for SKINr paint and all their ships cost a minimum of 25 plex with the sole exception of their Dreadnaught (Minimum 35) for this reason, it seems. Also odd, but I’m not complaining.

Costing 30 PLEX minimum:
3 T2 Mining Barges (ORE)
+
24 T2 Cruisers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
+
14 T1 Battleships (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar/EdenC/SoCT)
8 Navy Battleships (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
7 Faction Battleships (Guri/Sansha/Blood/Angel/Serp/SOE)

Costing 35 PLEX minimum:
8 T2 Battlecruisers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
+
2 Industrial Command Ships (ORE)
+
1 T1 Freighter (Caldari) - No ‘details’ slot?
+
1 T1 Dreadnaught (TriC)

Costing 40 PLEX minimum:
8 T2 Battleships (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
+
1 T1 Capital Industrial Ship (ORE)
+
5 T1 Freighters (Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar/ORE/EdenC)
1 T2 Freighter (Caldari) - No ‘details’ slot like the T1 version.
+
4 T1 Dreadnaughts (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
1 T2 Dreadnaught (Amarr) - No ‘detailing’ slot.
3 Faction Dreadnaughts (Guri/Blood/Serp)
+
12 T1 Carriers (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
4 Faction Carriers (Guri/Sansha/Blood/Serp)

Costing 50 PLEX minimum:
3 T2 Freighters (Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar)
+
3 T2 Dreadnaughts (Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)

Costing 60 PLEX minimum:
4 T1 Titans (Amarr/Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar)
4 Faction Titans (Guri/Blood/Angel/Serp)

327 different ships that can get a player-made skin, totaling 206 at 25 PLEX minimum to make a SKIN, 56 at 30, 12 at 35, 39 at 40, 6 at 50 and 8 titan variants at 60 baseline cost. That’s 9590 PLEX at least to make a skin for each ship and complete a set.

2

wordsalad

3

Opinion noted. Anything to offer on the topic presented?

4

Left this for over a week, I guess no-one has any input on this or had any interest in reading it?

5

I agree with the first poster, your idea may be good but the way it is presented does not invite reading.

It is lengthy and contains many seemingly irrelevant details and numbers, especially the parts from point C onwards.

Now I’m no stranger to lengthy posts with unnecessary details, so I gave it a try anyway.

Do I understdnd correctly that your problems with the current corp SKINR project is that

  1. It’s a problem that you need to make a skin for every ship type used in fleets
  2. It’s a problem that players can keep using corp skins even when they leave corp.

In what way are these really problems?

About point 2:
Let’s say I joined Goonswarm and bought some bee-themed ship skins with yellow and black lines (fitting the theme of Goons) for my ships and then left Goons.

Why is it a problem I can still use my bee-themed ship if I wanted even if I’m not part of Goons?

I see no problem:

First, I paid for it so I should be able to use that skin.
Second, I can already make a black and yellow striped ship today if I wanted even without being part of Goons, it’s not like corp themes are restricted to one corp only.

It’s not unlike where some corporations have a common theme with their character portraits where you can recognise for example many Wingspan characters by their shared suit and background.

While it is a unique combination used by one corp there is nothing in the game that stops me from using that same combination for my own portrait, except embarrassment. (Kidding).

In short I don’t see how this one is a problem that players can fly ship colours that are/were part of another corp.

Next, you find it a problem that a skin needs to be made for every ship type.

Why?

Isn’t that the odea of SKINR, to let players make skins for all ships?

What kind of alternative would you suggest? Low effort monocolour skins that apply to all ships? You can make those too with SKINR if you wanted.

For this point I think I don’t yet get the problem. Could you explain more?

6

“I agree with the first poster, your idea may be good but the way it is presented does not invite reading.”

The original poster replying, only posted the term ‘word salad’ with no capitalization, divide between the two words in the term, no punctuation, and no elaboration on how the term applies - a lengthy post does not quality; a ‘word salad’ is incoherent, rambly, using real and imagined terms, perhaps even contradictory and so on.

I fail to see how the first poster’s completely empty post was in any way fair to what I wrote given there was no follow-up or elaboration in any way, he falsely judged and dismissed.

“It is lengthy and contains many seemingly irrelevant details and numbers, especially the parts from point C onwards.”

Sometimes explaining something takes a bit of work and you use more than just a few words. More importantly, would you care to elaborate on this? If you mean the table of ships and the cost in PLEX of the skins for them, that serves to high-light my point about SKIN-costs and how unfeasible it would currently be to the concept I’m talking about.

I even said so in my original post: “Did the work on bare-minimum costs to give every skin some simple colouring, left here to underscore my point.”

“Now I’m no stranger to lengthy posts with unnecessary details, so I gave it a try anyway.”

Thank you, we can now have a chat about this.

" Do I understdnd correctly that your problems with the current corp SKINR project is that

1. It’s a problem that you need to make a skin for every ship type used in fleets
2. It’s a problem that players can keep using corp skins even when they leave corp."

No, this simplifies the issue at hand. I laid it out and even shortened it down even more by removing elaborations to help understand my points. You are seeing the 2.0 version of the post, and as I feared, seemingly it was too little to understand the issue at hand.

I will re-iterate that I have two issues here.

  1. There is no dedicated ‘corp/alliance’ uniform system to help create a sense of further unity and companionship in a corp/alliance by giving their members unified colours to fly under. You have a corp/alliance icon and a tag, that is all, and in my opinion this don’t suffice.

  2. The current SKINr system is perfectly usable for what it currently does - let players express their creativity and freedom in making SKIN’s for themselves and to sell to other, individual players that want to buy them - but obscenely expensive if it were to be used as a corp-uniform creation tool, and because the regular, costly SKINS are justifiably permanent for the players in question, they do not count as corporation/alliance restricted.

This is what I wish to have the CSM and CCP look into to create, a system where a corp/alliance member with the needed roles can make SKIN-templates that become available to the average members in their corp/alliance for a very small fee to justify their nature as limited-use SKIN’s that only apply so long as you are a member of said corp/alliance.

"About point 2:
Let’s say I joined Goonswarm and bought some bee-themed ship skins with yellow and black lines (fitting the theme of Goons) for my ships and then left Goons.

Why is it a problem I can still use my bee-themed ship if I wanted even if I’m not part of Goons?

I see no problem:

First, I paid for it so I should be able to use that skin.
Second, I can already make a black and yellow striped ship today if I wanted even without being part of Goons, it’s not like corp themes are restricted to one corp only.

It’s not unlike where some corporations have a common theme with their character portraits where you can recognise for example many Wingspan characters by their shared suit and background.

While it is a unique combination used by one corp there is nothing in the game that stops me from using that same combination for my own portrait, except embarrassment. (Kidding).

In short I don’t see how this one is a problem that players can fly ship colours that are/were part of another corp."

Given enough players making enough corporations and alliances and limited colours and designs available, look-alikes and shared themes are inevitable, there will indeed even be copy-cats intentionally trying to make designs as close to or mirroring that of others - either to troll, or simply to make their own spin on the SKIN-design used by another corporation in their own alliance, should CCP implement this SKIN-uniform system I’d like to see, but only doing so for corporations, not alliance-level.

This is inevitable and not an issue. I touched on the fact that if you make a ‘corp/alliance-limited’ SKIN and it persists after the player buying it leaves, that means it was not a corp/alliance limited SKIN to start with, just a normal one as we have now.

This also added to the fact that the current system is highly functional for it’s intended use, but asking a whole corp to spend thousands and thousands of PLEX total on a skin-collection is an unreasonable proposition with regular, permanent SKINS, and a perfectly reasonable and affordable goal even for relatively new players if the ‘limited to corp-only’ SKIN’s were super-cheap.

You said this:

“[Your original post] is lengthy and contains many seemingly irrelevant details and numbers, especially the parts from point C onwards.”

A prime example of why your assessment of my original post was unfair: Point C and D go over suggestions for how the corp-only SKIN’s could be balanced in cost for the members, and D specifically goes over how this would be fair on CCP who obviously would like to make money off the player’s wish to express their creativity with this customization tool we have gotten.

Lastly…

"Next, you find it a problem that a skin needs to be made for every ship type.

Why?

Isn’t that the odea of SKINR, to let players make skins for all ships?

What kind of alternative would you suggest? Low effort monocolour skins that apply to all ships? You can make those too with SKINR if you wanted.

For this point I think I don’t yet get the problem. Could you explain more?"

You asked, and I just did!

I do not find it a problem that a SKIN needs to be made for every ship type, I’m saying that to do that with the current system is highly costly and that, to use the current system to make ‘corp/alliance uniform’ SKIN’s for their members is not functional and excessively costly.

Ergo, the proportion and request to make a new system that use the existing one to make a separate type of SKIN’s, as has now been elaborated on. Twice.

Your reply to me reads as someone that skim-read, at best, my post without actually reading it and what I said. You misunderstood me at several points and jumped to mistaken conclusions that were easily avoided had you actually read what I said. Why did you do this? Seemingly because the post was to long…

…so I imagine this reply for you may well never be read. But now that I’ve elaborated twice, hopefully it’s at least clear to any members of the CSM and/or CCP staff directly what I’m asking for and why.

I don’t like talking to a wall, but I would dearly love to see some sort of system like this implemented, one that’s fair to both the players that would use it, and to CCP as a corporation, and I believe it’s possible to do so without undermining or supplanting the existing SKINr system as it stands.

7

Thanks for your detailed reply!

I agree that the first response (word salad) was unfair and unhelpful. It’s just that suggestions are easiest to understand when they’re clear and to the point. And if they aren’t short, then at least the main message should be easily seen for someone skimming the text so they know what it is you’re suggesting before reading it all.

That was just a bit of feedback, since you asked why people had no input or interest in reading it.

Indeed, the more there is written, the easier it is to miss parts of it. I too often make the mistake of typing too much, so I recognise the issue.

But on to the topic.

I do agree with you that corporation skins could be done better in EVE.

My own alliance has an unofficial ‘corporation skin’ in the form of the Biosecurity Responders skins, which happen to Brave blue, cheap and available for all ships.

I haven’t seen any attempts at using the SKINR corporation skins yet, I assume because of the high price and/or hassle of making corporation skins. Now that I read into it it seems corporations need to make a skin for every individual player who wishes to use those skins, and players have to pay regular SKINR prices for them. I cannot see why anyone would be crazy enough to use this.

I agree with your post that to encourage corporation skins, the corp skins should be significantly cheaper for the corp members.

These skins shouldn’t be priced at the point that players can show off their pretty skins. The skins should be priced at the point that every player in the group can afford to get a uniform skin.

Biosecurity Responders skins are a nice unofficial skin for my alliance simply because they’re cheap so there’s no reason to not be flying one. Corporation SKINR skins should have a similar price for members.

1 Like
8

Proved me wrong. Thanks.

And indeed, the only way atm to have anything ‘uniform’ is to aim for some of the most common, hence cheap, skins around. Being able to design something that, for the ‘cost’ of being cheap for the average member would still cost the regular SKINr costs, I’d say is quite fair.

An individual player wanting a skin for every ship will have to splerge on way more than 10K PLEX if they want something more than absolute basic. Metallic colours, rarer colours, detailing slot use all add complexity and more complexity is more cost. 9590 PLEX total is just the bare minimum for ‘one skin of each ship’ regardless of other qualifiers.

But to a corp of dozens, or hundreds of members? Slowly cooking skins for every ship, starting with the most used ones (cover all your doctrines etc) would be a decent team-effort goal to reach. And if they all cost 1 PLEX plus, for instance, the value of the basic SKINr resources in sequencing etc. it would still take some effort for each member and some PLEX to do - ergo, more players in general would be buying more PLEX, even if they know this skin is cheap because it only applies so long as they are a member of the corp.

And it would not overshadow all the other permanent skins out there from the NES or players making SKINr designs to sell on the market, because all of those would still come with the value of being trully permanent to the player, and CCP has shown they have a much, much more comprehensive detail-list available for the SKIN selection they make - no player is going to re-make Headhunter, Capsuleer Day, Glittering Dream… heck Military stockpile skins would be a challenge ^^

I’ve little more to say on the topic, hoping it’s clear enough as-is, and that we might get some word about this from ‘higher up’ as I’d dearly love to have ‘make pretty basic looks for my guys’ a corp-goal to strive for that exists some day.

9

20 days come and go - nobody else have anything to share on the topic? Am I posting this in the wrong place, maybe?

10

Bumping for now.