Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use?

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

I’m sure if you took more time to think rather than insta-replying and falling for the obvious, you’ll start to understand.

Oh, I read and understood.
You openly advocated for making botting legal, as a good thing for EVE.

@zluq_zabaa

Where do you take this from? All the bots people have outed so far show exactly the opposite.

Yes, because those are the ones that have been outed.
See?

@zluq_zabaa

Any bot running a Triglavian Site will at least face the same issue every player does: they can’t leave the site without completing it and someone can wait at the exit and kill them.

This is a non-issue for bots in Player NS secured systems.

@zluq_zabaa

Make PVE harder, less predictable and more dangerous. It makes botting much less feasible.

Thats the thing. It doesnt make botting less feasible.
Instead it makes non-botters lives harder.

@zluq_zabaa

Having CCP play the tedious job of a firefighter, only costs ressources and is currently a sisyphos job.

Hence the 5 options you ignored, in favor of your utterly ridiculous and flat out fking offensive option that botting should be allowed.

@zluq_zabaa

High income should come with high risk. Therefor the high-income PVE should be more dangerous and difficult anyway.

I already addressed this. Risk in EVE does not come from PvE, it comes from PvP.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

You openly advocated for making botting legal, as a good thing for EVE.

I asked you to change my mind. The problem with this discussion is that the arguments picked fall flat to adress the underlying issues. Using your arguments, you can’t prove that botting is bad for EVE. The real arguments are those who you don’t want to change.

Thus, you are actually an enabler of botting, because you don’t want the game to change in a way that deters botters.

TL;DR if you want PVE that is doable in an easy, safe and unchallenging fashion, there will always be bots.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

I asked you to change my mind.

Change your mind that you think botting should be made legal?

Why the fk should I do that.

@zluq_zabaa

Thus, you are actually an enabler of botting, because you don’t want the game to change in a way that deters botters.

Bots can handle them with sufficient tank/dps, same as a player can.
Your illusion that PvE can be made so hard that a bot cant run it, is false, and also makes PvE harder for non-botters.

---

Give us an example of how you would make mining so hard, that bots cant do it.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Your illusion that PvE can be made so hard that a bot cant run it, is false, and also makes PvE harder for non-botters.

Logic isn’t your strong suit is it?

“Cry cry cry. YOU ARE WRONG! YOU ARE ALSO RIGHT, BUT THAT’S BAD! Cry Cry Cry”
That’s you.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

Logic isn’t your strong suit is it?

Its my strongest suit.
If PvE gets harder, it gets harder for everyone, whether bot or not.
That is logic.
You are the guy that actually advocated for making bots legal as a good thing for EVE.

Give us an example of how you would make mining so hard, that bots cant do it.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

You are the guy that actually advocated for making bots legal as a good thing for EVE.

As long as some types of PVE are nothing but a brainless, assiduous task, bots will exist. While I personally wouldn’t bot because it is against the ToS, I am in support of everyone who automates brainless activities. This is progress. Players who are willing to put years into mind-numbing grinding do not have my pity if one day CCP makes new rules under which these activities are de-valued in the sense of the game. I will be happy, because for me tactics, strategy, group organization, inventiveness and ability to take a hit should always outweight grinding.

I’m advocating for high-income PVE to get harder, so that bots can’t compete with players. We have Project Discovery because not every task is nearly as efficiently doable by machines, as by humans. There are many more examples.

You on the other hand want to keep the pre-conditions of botting intact.
You say you don’t want botting, but you contradict yourself by crying out loud against the changes necessary to stop botting.
So you are either a liar or just too limited in your thinking, let’s call it that.

Botting has negative consequences for the game just as much as grindable mind-numbing PVE.

Make PVE risk fit the reward or legalize botting. Simple as that.

Now you can continue to cry.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

I am in support of everyone who automates brainless activities.

Give us an example of how you would make mining so hard, that bots cant do it.

[zluq_zabaa]

@zluq_zabaa

Logic isn’t your strong suit is it?

@Salvos_Rhoska

Its my strongest suit.

@zluq_zabaa

Giving Anom NPCs better tactics and more e-war is another. For mining, not sure, but someone will come up with something.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Give us an example of how you would make mining so hard, that bots cant do it.

I said I am not sure and I have other things to do at this moment than to draw concepts of how to make mining less assiduous and more brainy, considering that the only thing that will immediately follow is another low effort post by you.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

So aside from your support for bots being made legal, you have nothing except empty rhetoric.

Ok then.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

So aside from your support for bots being made legal, you have nothing except empty rhetoric.

@zluq_zabaa

As long as some types of PVE are nothing but a brainless, assiduous task, bots will exist. While I personally wouldn’t bot because it is against the ToS, I am in support of everyone who automates brainless activities. This is progress. Players who are willing to put years into mind-numbing grinding do not have my pity if one day CCP makes new rules under which these activities are de-valued in the sense of the game. I will be happy, because for me tactics, strategy, group organization, inventiveness and ability to take a hit should always outweight grinding.

I’m advocating for high-income PVE to get harder, so that bots can’t compete with players. We have Project Discovery because not every task is nearly as efficiently doable by machines, as by humans. There are many more examples.

You on the other hand want to keep the pre-conditions of botting intact.

You say you don’t want botting, but you contradict yourself by crying out loud against the changes necessary to stop botting.

So you are either a liar or just too limited in your thinking, let’s call it that.

Botting has negative consequences for the game just as much as grindable mind-numbing PVE.

Make PVE risk fit the reward or legalize botting. Simple as that.

Now you can continue to cry.

I mean your attempt to bury other peoples opinion under your spamming and trolling is kind of cute, but if you expect people reading this to be so stupid to actually fall for your crap, I think you underestimate the average forum reader.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

I mean your attempt to bury other peoples opinion under your spamming and trolling is kind of cute,

That is exactly what you did above, inorder to avoid having to answer simple questions.

This is pathetic.

First you advocate for making bots LEGAL.
Then you claim making PvE harder, is the solution.

EWAR is already a severe restriction on PvE, as it makes many ships incapable of running the content.

When asked how to make mining harder, you folded.

Making PvE harder will not prevent bots.
All a bot needs, is a fit with sufficient EHP and/or dps, and they can run it, no matter how long it takes.

Your entire premise is flawed.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

That is exactly what you did above, inorder to avoid having to answer simple questions.

I have answered the question about mining, before you posted it. The only reason you’ve asked is because you knew I didn’t write a concept for that yet. Nice try stupid.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Then you claim making PvE harder, is the solution.

It is. Prove that wrong.

@Salvos_Rhoska

EWAR is already a severe restriction on PvE, as it makes many ships incapable of running the content.

If you think that PVE is already hard, you wouldn’t survive a day in what I have in mind for EVE. If you can’t deal with the 1-3 forms of ewar that non-abyssal PVE has, you are nothing but a drone and I’m happy to see bots replace people like you.

@Salvos_Rhoska

When asked how to make mining harder, you folded.

Before your asked. That’s why you asked. Because in your weird world you think that people admitting they don’t know something or didn’t think about one aspect of something, is a flaw.
That’s sad, but it explains why you can only react to others by spamming, trying to be the one who asks questions and you show no interest in the depths of discussion or even learning something for yourself.
I know you feel the need to always have the last word and that’s probably a disease, but anyway I hope you get better.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Making PvE harder will not prevent bots.

Making PVE, especially High Income PVE, less predictable and make it require more live decisions, manual piloting, adapting while in a situation, very much will prevent bots.

@Salvos_Rhoska

All a bot needs, is a fit with sufficient EHP and/or dps, and they can run it, no matter how long it takes.

You don’t know anything about this game it seems.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

You don’t know anything about this game it seems.

So your solution is:

• Multiple forms of EWAR in each PvE encounter.

That will make non-drone ships incapable of running them, genius.

What about mining?

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

So your solution is:

Multiple forms of EWAR in each PvE encounter.

That will make non-drone/auto-target missile ships incapable of running them, genius.

Putting words into my mouth to then try to prove they are wrong. Cheap troll attempt. Try harder.

Making PVE more complex, success based more on decisions on the fly, manual piloting and adapting to ever changing states of the content, will deter bots. Being unable to predict the type of ewar NPCs will do, is one example. No need to face all types of ewar for that.

Also, at this point and after posting my analysis, I will take the short time necessary to reply to your so-called options:

@Salvos_Rhoska

Five options:

@Salvos_Rhoska

1. More staff.

Staff costs money. If CCP could afford it, they would have done it. They haven’t, so they can’t afford it. So it isn’t actually an option. To waste dev time on fighting bots instead of implementing a system in which bots cannot thrive, is like paying people to catch flies in the bathroom rather than to just use the freaking flush.

@Salvos_Rhoska

2. More automated monitoring/flagging.

Your fault here is, that “more” would help more, while you absolutetly know nothing about how CCP currently does that. In the end every case needs to be checked on its own and that’s complex. Simply throwing in “more” data to process is not smart.

@Salvos_Rhoska

3. Minigames inside the game that stump bots.

Err, people would probably take a crap on CCP if they forced us to do minigames. Also, if the minigame is anything like you want your PVE (easy, safe), it will be included in the bots. Relic/Data bots have been reported.

@Salvos_Rhoska

4. Harsher penalties for botters.

While I’m not against it, it will only lead to botters becoming more smart in avoiding punishment.

@Salvos_Rhoska

5. Better player tools to report botters.

Players can already report bots in game. Giving players more tools for that will only lead to more data that needs to be processed and the quality of which is highly questionable, because this is EVE and players will use every opportunity to damage their opponents.

In conclusion, none of your so-called “options” offers any solution to botting. They not only fail to address the problem, but also fail to bring up anything new. All these points have been discusssed ad nauseam and people have proven them to fall short.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

In conclusion, none of your so-called “options” offers any solution to botting.

And then you proposed this:

@zluq_zabaa

Option 6: allow botting.

Then you proposed more EWAR in PVE, without considering how badly that fks all non-drone ships, and does not harm drone botters.

When asked for a mining solution to make it “harder” you claimed you dont have time, yet have been posting walls of text since then in this thread and others.

[zluq_zabaa]

Well people who are interesting to read what I wrote will do it.

People who are not, won’t.

People who are interested in serious discussions will sooner or later learn that you have nothing to offer.

Maybe or maybe not at some point a mod will ban you for the toxic behaviour you are showing.

I don’t care.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

1. You are referring to your buddies with your shared interests in not intefering with botting.

2. Your toxic behavior is off the charts and you have already been called on that.

3. If I was CCP, I would be investigating your account(s) for botting, as we speak.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Salvos_Rhoska

You are referring to your buddies with your shared interests in not intefering with botting.

I am in strong support with everyone who automates brainless activities. Whereever, whenever. If botting is a problem, the underlying reasons for it to exist must be solved. Make PVE less bot-able.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Your toxic behavior is off the charts and you have already been called on that.

Outsmarting a troll isn’t toxic.

@Salvos_Rhoska

If I was CCP, I would be investigating your account(s) for botting, as we speak.

I would not expect anything else from someone as simple-minded as you.
I don’t bot. But feel free to report me out of your sperging hate

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@zluq_zabaa

I am in strong support with everyone who automates brainless activities.

Yes, we know you support botting.
You have said so repeatedly.

@zluq_zabaa

Outsmarting a troll isn’t toxic.

You didnt outsmart me, but you did outsmart CCP for this expansion to go forward as it is.

@zluq_zabaa

I would not expect anything else from someone as simple-minded as you.

If I was simple-minded, I wouldnt have figured out the meta-play involved here.
If I was simple-minded, you wouldnt have been worried that I was cracking the veneer.

[Algarion_Getz]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Five options:

1. More staff.

2. More automated monitoring/flagging.

3. Minigames inside the game that stump bots.

4. Harsher penalties for botters.

5. Better player tools to report botters.

More staff? That implies CCP has already staff working on anti-botting.

The botters who started this whole scandal are back to work:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/8i4rx1/omist_bot_supers_back_to_work/

If average players can catch them, imagine what a GM could do who

• can be invisible in local
• can go to any place in the game instantly
• can watch everyone
• has access to extensive logs

Especially carriers should be easy to catch … you have to be active to rat with them, which means they should show typical human behaviours like irregular mouse clicks, breaks, regular offline time for work and sleep, etc. All that can be tracked and analyzed by programs that flag players who have too regular patterns for manual inspection.

If supers can make it past CCPs bot detection, imagine how many VNI and Gila bots there are … (They dont require much player input and are thus much harder to analyze.)