Wow now. How else would you fund PvP in EvE’s setting ?! There is no manipulation involved but a simple economic (and real life) reality: if you want something you’ll have to work for it. Generalizations don’t work, ask any solo ganker or pvp’er. The answers you will get are as diverse as the players that come to this game. And of course people get something out of PvP and the risk involved, some adrenaline at the very least. Some people like that, and it’s all they ask for. I know I do …
You insist on calling PvP. or PvE, a tool, where I would label them means - means in the hands of the publisher to keep the player driven economy healthy, means because they serve a purpose, while tools are associated with specific actions limited in scope. The difference between the words is not important enough for a debate in light of this thread. That wealth hoarding (via PvE) is high on many people’s agenda is obvious. And we could go on for quite a few posts as to the possible underlying reasons for this piling up of isk, with some interesting sidestepping to real life, like your drawing of parallels for PvP.
If you want to equate playing a game with exposing yourself to “manipulation” by the rules/realities of the setting (and not necessarily by other players with underlying agendas), that’s fine and there’s nothing wrong with it. That’s personal choice, but once the choice is made it is no longer negotiable in the specific setting.
Grind money in order to afford ship to risk in combat for the purpose of securing additional/improved means of generating more money and power, so as to be more wealthier, powerful, feared, and/or respected than other EVE players.
Irrational method of playing EVE:
Grind money in order to afford ship to lose in PvP.
And the reason why one is rational while the other is irrational is that there are many games out there that offer the PvP combat experience without a boring, mind-numbing, soul-crushing PvE grinding component attached.
= rational ?! But okay, those may be underlying motivations, aspirations etc that require a means (or a few tools) to achieve. And I’ve played enough PvP in other MMO’s without the factor of
to report back to you that the wealth, power, fear and respect factors are very real there as well. And the adrenaline, and the ranking, and associated armor, weapons, emotes and the rest. I agree that the PvE here is boring etc most of the time - although I thoroughly enjoy most events, especially the triglavian invasion - as you may read in earlier posts.
But that was never the discussion, at least not from my point of view. It’s not even a point of discussion if wealth, power, fear and respect constitute “fun”. If that is what some people get out of it, all the better for the game, and good for them.
I agree. I’m just saying that you can get a similar payoff in other games without the grind. EVE has a very specific flavor of it, though, which justifies its boring-ass PvE grind, to an extent.
I don’t know if anyone truly finds EVE PvE “fun.” I’ve asked some farmers/grinders about this over the years, and their answer quickly turn to not the act of PvE being fun, but what it enables them to do, e.g. being able to watch Netflix while only committing a small amount of attention to the game and getting something tangible out of it, unlike in other games where they have to commit fully.
Yeah, we agree on those points. I would just throw in the extra element that the scale at which we can do things in EvE, the mind numbing PvE, enables us to do achieve world record breaking PvP that doesn’t exist in any other game. That’s not a significant comfort for most people doing only the grind, but maybe they stare at roids too long (or Netflix). Somehow that feels like they’re missing out on a beautiful game, one they will not truly discover. But that’s their prerogative and choice, not mine. All’s good.
My friends, I had not intended to discuss this controversial subject at this particular time. However, I want you to know that I do not shun controversy. On the contrary, I will take a stand on any issue at any time, regardless of how fraught with controversy it might be. You have asked me how I feel about whiskey. All right, this is how I feel about whiskey:
If when you say whiskey you mean the devil’s brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster, that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean the evil drink that topples the Christian man and woman from the pinnacle of righteous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, and despair, and shame and helplessness, and hopelessness, then certainly I am against it.
But, if when you say whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and laughter on their lips, and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer; if you mean the stimulating drink that puts the spring in the old gentleman’s step on a frosty, crispy morning; if you mean the drink which enables a man to magnify his joy, and his happiness, and to forget, if only for a little while, life’s great tragedies, and heartaches, and sorrows; if you mean that drink, the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars, which are used to provide tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitiful aged and infirm; to build highways and hospitals and schools, then certainly I am for it.
This is my stand. I will not retreat from it. I will not compromise.
“Record Breaking PvP” is another way to say “The most egregious of blob warfare”. It sounds good or bad depending on the light the speaker chooses to cast on it; Which properties the speaker chooses to put emphasis on.
How many of a game’s users congregate in one virtual place at a time is largely irrelevant when thinking about a game’s success. If you have the same number of players engaged with your game it doesn’t matter if they’re all in one place, or scattered all over.
Sure, what Eve accomplishes is special, and noteworthy, but I don’t think developers overlook this because they haven’t realized the impact of being able to make claims on hosting massive battles, but are instead looking at things pragmatically with the probably correct belief that TiDi in a new title would probably be more of a hinderance than the hype over the battle player counts would be a help.
There’s definitely a reason you don’t see exciting playbacks of in game footage from these battles, though. People aren’t there for excitement. They’re there because they’re invested in the outcome of the battle enough to endure through that TiDi pain. Big battles sound good on paper, but try participating in one and you may have second thoughts, especially if you have no stake in what’s going on. A screen shot of a massive fleet is about as good as it gets because we expect that not to move.
Dude, unles you give those bright and gifted people unlimited credit to ignore the most important rule in New Eden, the “Do not fly what you can’t afford blah blah” one, you’ll always be one ship away from a ragequit.
I’ve been in a few, that’s where I was taught the joys of potato mode. Massive fights are impressive and it made me feel quite small indeed, but not alone.
Being there or not, it’s anyone’s choice.
@Qia_Kare Good one, I learned something new.
I would apply the whiskey speech to EvE itself. not just the record breaking (or smaller) blobs, Every pve and pvp aspect has its downsides, we learn to live with it if we want to continue playing it. The “oil of the conversation” may turn into the vulgarity of the next exchange at any moment (re your whiskey reference).
The technical punch EvE throws at us (or we at it) in the form of TiDi is certainly not a fun factor, but at least it makes it possible to put that many people on grid and slug it out for many hours on end. I watched some of the live streams from Fountain (the repeated keepstar drops) from start to finish. On occasion the streamers would highlight and zoom in on specific parts of the fight. It looked exciting and impressive enough for me, even after watching the stream attentively for hours (and no, I’m not related to any of the warring parties). Do all those pilots have “fun” ? Ask them. They’re probably not ecstatic all the time, but they are motivated (and more so on the defending side) for sure, to go through these events repeatedly. There must be a fun factor in there, for them, one that supersedes the mere risk of losing assets if they don’t fight, I’d say, or at least “satisfaction”. Teamwork, breaking the enemy’s will, running incredibly complex operations, harvesting salt, … whatever floats their boat.
But as with everything, one can judge the glass being half full or half empty, that’s everyone’s right. Mine is at the very least half full from where I’m sitting, and if I can help other people see the beauty where they didn’t see it before I won’t hesitate - without expecting them to like what I like. I’ll take the whiskey and the headache if need be. Cheers
The UKk government are currently doing this by giving everyone in work a wage furlough…When the time comes to pay that back, you can rest assured that the resulting 1-3% on the income tax will upset everyone, just like taxing people ingame will too!
The speech can really be applied to anything. I don’t disagree with your interpretation so much as I am pointing out that people can color a set of facts a lot of different ways with subjective opinions.
I don’t mean that Eve’s unique achievements are not worthy of praise, but I do have some doubts on the practicality of the pursuit of those achievements. That said, I would not call the pursuit of these achievements silly, either. A single shard universe where everyone can join in on a big battle that means something to them is very much in keeping with the unique identity that Eve has. I don’t have any personal interest in that but I am glad it is something available to everyone who can appreciate it.
Eehh Im not so sure. Ive never found angle to work to get in on any either way.
But from another angle; are huge fleet actions mixed affairs or just multiples of X fit cookiecuttered with one or two exceptions? Like, do they reflect any kind of naval fleet composition?
Not everyone. A lot of us are now basically unemployed/unemployable.
Absolutely correct. Especially when you consider that a lot of those “massive battle” numbers are folks with half a dozen alts in the battle, because it moves so excruciatingly slowly that you can multi-task as many as you have on hand.
However CCP is of the opinion that because these battles drive news stories once or twice a year, and because virtually all the people engaging in them are paying for subs, then these are the features they push the game towards. The rest of the game is currently just a leftover kept limping along on to rope players into ending up in occasional high-profile nullsec battles.
Not because they are good in themselves, but because they give good visibility to a game that has a lot more than just that, but requires a lot of commitment to be worth playing.
The rest of the game is a very complex mechanisms system with a lot of regulation loops and dynamic geography, which is the original idea of a good MMO was when Eve was born, and is still what makes Eve valuable.
Fleet doctrines are used, which not just try to optimize the fits of each ship type used in the fleet but especially focus on the collaboration and maximal effect of the different ship types when working together. The types chosen are usually fairly limited in scope (see any battle report for a big encounter), but one can tell from the types used which specific role they have on the battle field, like in rl naval fleets or any Napoleonic era army even. The grid simply needs those roles. One doesn’t see it during the usual live streams, which often only show a cluster of bubbles, and globs of red and blue icons, but when zooming in you actually can see e.g., “lancer” type outfits that chase ships in trouble trying to get to safer positions (the role of the lancer regiments in Napoleonic and later wars). Or you see the ships that are fitted to counter bomber attacks, the bubblers, the logi in the back, etc etc. I guess the only people who really see what is going on at any time are the FC’s in their Monitors.
Cookie cutter fitted ? If they use the same doctrine for too long it may become a cookie cutter fit, I suppose. But they will of course try to come up with new surprises via refined or new doctrines after having studied the fleet doctrines of the enemy. And in most, if not all cases the fleet doctrines will have the alliance industrial power behind it. For example, during one of the fights in WWB2 in the summer, the GW/INIT side was using its Raven subcap doctrine, with players behind the lines cranking out fresh Ravens from their factories to replace the ones that fell on the battlefield in real time. In that sense, fleet doctrines go even further than “just” ships. Quite the achievement to get it all organized, running and maintained while part of the coalition is fighting in a live battle. The downside to this is that it takes time and flexibility to introduce new doctrines. The advantage is organization and maximal effect. The guys/gals who run this sort of activity have my admiration, no kidding.
Maybe you should try to get Brisc to talk about this
Unfortunately, getting so “established” that gankers and griefers can no longer hurt you is just not a possibility.
Basically the mechanics are broken, and CCP have not addressed the exploits that leave non-PvP players open to attack.
The classic method:
1 A frigate shows up in your mission, steals something to turn “yellow and flashy”, then hopes you’ll attack them (so they can warp in their mates and kill you).
2 If you’re not dumb enough to attack, maybe your drones are, so you call them in. Next, another account will start a chat, “I’ve been hunting this frigate, help me by attacking him” (an obvious scam of course, the account is the griefer’s alt). Almost as dumb as the old “Let’s form a fleet, I’ll show you a wormhole” scam.
3 If you decline, you’ll get mails calling you a coward and worse, but you’ll get to keep your ship.
4 If you’re flying a mission where you need to deliver mission specific loot to your agent, they’ll steal that.
5 There is NOTHING you can do. Place a bounty on him? Their alt will collect it. Shoot them? That’s what they (and their mates) have been waiting for. Complain? The only button to report someone is “ISK Spammer”.
So, basically, CCP is showing peaceful players the middle finger, and has not fixed this massive exploit in the last decade.
I suppose this means that CCP don’t make much revenue off carebears but instead need to cater to the players they make all their money on. I haven’t tried to find numbers, but it seems totally obvious that CCP must be making most of their turnover from gankers, griefers, scammers and nullsec alliances – to the extent that they didn’t even find it worth adding A SINGLE HIGH SEC MISSION (or fix broken game mechanics) in the last decade.
They are not. You r drones will ONLY defend you. If your ships is destroyed as a result of your drones attacking it on their own, submit a bug report.
I tested with my alt attacking my MTU, my mobile depot, even with security red drones did not defend them.
make a report for offensive mails. They’ll get banned.
many missions deliver the item in your cargo. Others deliver the item in several numbers.For the remainings, be faster. I was NEVER stolen items in a mission. Worse that happened is someone scanning me in my ded5 and trying to snatch the commander, without success.
Be smarter than them and they end up wasting their time. Make friends and you’ll eventually be able to shoot down that suspect frigate since a friend will handle it in a PVP fit. Or maybe, YOU will be able to shoot it down when a friend will ask for help. Who knows ? Just stop whinning and get yourself a fcking 10M fit to web, point, neutra that frigate. Get a mobile depot with grappler, neutra, scram in the BS.
They did.
Maybe you should stop hanging with people “dur dur gankers grievers” and start confronting your ideas to reality. Maybe you should even try to become a ganker yourself since you believe it’s that easy and that worth.
A lot of them do it for the profit, you shouldn’t take (insert group) and call them (insert insult) because that’s among one of the most ignorant things any one can do which leads to stereotypes and other things that people generally look down upon. Now if you have evidence of a certain individual who ganks and can prove they are what you claim then good for you, but I’m guessing your just mad you got ganked by someone.
