Space comunism, the perfect ending for this 2020 thing
Oh I never knew you ‘fixed’ the economy, how did you do so with austerity? It seems the famine patch is still in force?
Oh wait, you are full of it. More free SP & give everyone a free Titan who subs this Christmas, to the deepest of bottoms we must go in search of this 1/4’s subs.
Well Op, considering the Fireside chat on twitch yesterday…CCP Hellmar the CEO would tell you to get REKT Son.
Now my personal opinion…
Hell no, we do not need to reward the lazy and the stupid, get out of here with your garbage, pod thyself, uninstall, and never come back.
There is a pod outside of my home station for a month now. The player self destruct the corvette but left the pod. I’m thinking of suicide ganking it to show some mercy.
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Players sign up for EVE because they want to play EVE. The percentage of NEW players who sign up for EVE and don’t play because they want to farm UBI is going to be significantly less than the percentage of players who think HS Venture farming is an appropriate step toward climbing the wealth ladder. If players sub Omegas that they aren’t playing, it is almost exclusively because they are skill training for when they do play, or because they’re passively generating income via science/industry/marketing/reactions/PI, etc. Ignorant newbies who lost it all would probably go back to something like HS Venture mining if they ‘lost it all’, but at least with UBI they 1. had the initial opportunity to do something other than that and 2. have the opportunity to enjoy a fully fitted frigate the next day for PVE (esp. L1 missions).
1m/day UBI replaces 1 hour of Venture mining with 1 hour of actual gameplay, thereby making EVE fun and increasing player retention.
On this point, OP and others might disagree with me: I acknowledge that there is a massive wealth gap not just in existing wealth but in the ability to accrue additional wealth (due to knowledge, experience, SP, and high-end fits); however, I do not believe this gap is actually relevant simply because market prices, as well as manufacturing capability and access to many faction modules (via fixed-price LP store), etc, are well within the reach of newbies after a very short period of time. For this we have static ISK/fountains to thanks for contributing to the inherently upper-bounds on market prices and the market having low rates of inflation/deflation - this is why a static UBI would be more appropriate than a dynamic UBI like insurance payouts.
Cruisers and battleships aren’t all that expensive, so its not as if this wealth discrepancy is disenfranchising the poor, and of course frigs and dessys are far cheaper, especially by 1m UBI standards.
Agreed. For newbies, UBI = ships, for vets UBI = ammo. Huge difference.
Agreed. I assumed this from the start. Not sure if @Wanda_Fayne misunderstood or is trolling (I do enjoy Wanda’s troll posts very much, though 
)
@Ramona_McCandless as tempted as I am to pitch in on this side-convo, I am inclined to agree with SP here. It would be best if your posts were deleted or significantly altered to, um, be less liable to succumb to Godwin’s Law and be more EVE-centric. If you choose to edit the posts, that would include removing quotes from SP. As your forum buddy, I am making a personal appeal as I don’t want this thread to be locked 
The latter point of this post is important: Unlike RL, currency in EVE gets burnt (as do assets orders of magnitude more than they do IRL), so the rate of inflation would be no where near comparable to RL.
This proposal is for Omegas only. Omegas aren’t exactly benefitting if they have to wait for their subscription to expire for the “benefit” of building their wealth without having to pay $$$ or ISK->PLEX for it.
On this point, I don’t think Destiny fully appreciates the income earning potential + fun factor + PVP contributions an Alpha account can yield. I’ve known several Alphas and seen them climb up to Omega in short order (both those who have worked for me and those who have not), and I’ve also seen them inflict some serious damage in Alpha state. Having said that, I will point out one thing that most players don’t know: if you are not currently subbed to Omega but want to experience Omega to see what it offers or to familiarize yourself with it before committing (ie. gain knowledge and experience with which to fully utilize Omega that you end up $$$ing/ISK->PLEXing so your sub isn’t wasted), then TQ Alphas can sub to Omega for free on Sisi (including free ancillary training queue unlocks). Of course, this requires that 1. you already have an existing TQ account and 2. the account was captured in the last Sisi mirror. I have a project planned pertinent to both of these points 
Not that I agree with your sentiment, but I did miss out on the Fireside chat - what portion of this are you referring to? What was it that they said that is pertinent here?
Whether or not you agree with UBI, this is the complete and total opposite of the attitude we should take when it comes to new players. If they are ignorant, we need make knowledge more readily accessible and make it more obvious where they should look for it. If they are poor, we need to give them sufficient, but not unfun and tedious, “bare minimum” capabilities by which to build their wealth from scratch (eg. enhance Corvettes, UBI as low as 1m instead of 10m in the original post, etc) and we need to make it clear what activities they can engage in that are readily accessible with low skills/fits that make high profits (eg. exploration, Project Discovery when proficient, etc).
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Complete gibberish, and nothing to do with what you were spouting. As usual.
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Maybe you don’t know it but on Earth, socialism died in 2051, way before the launch of the first shuttle to New Eden…
no, my attitude is fine…
I started this game many years ago, and was about to quit after only 7 days…
You know what got me to stay?
Another player, my 1st CEO, a veteran at the time, teaching me how to fit ships, how to run missions, how to do industry, how to do PI, how to gank, and how to pvp.
A player, newbie or not needs to socialize, and ask questions. A veteran has to be willing to teach, not just be a dick. And players need to just learn how to do stuff.
I have been in many MMO’s Archer, and EvE is the only one where consistently “think of the children” is used for many stupid reasons. This thread and OP is no exception, being pissy about the scarcity era CCP is putting us through gives Destiny no leg to stand on.
and to answer your question, yesterday Hillmar literally said in answering certain questions from the chat that mistakes should have consequences, so if you ■■■■ up you die…and thats it period, you learn from failing.
He also mentioned that if it was possible to fix it, that CCP should remove all manufacturing and research slots from NPC stations now that we have upwell structures.
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So what’s his excuse?
Super, so basically monopolising the means of production.
What an ass.
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Not entirely correct. Players sign up for EVE because they hear or see something about EVE that intrigues them. Then they go to the website, register, and start downloading. Then by EVE’s own stats, something like 50% of the downloaders never even log in. Then another 35% or so log in once and never again. (An excellent question to ask there is “Why does this happen?” But that’s another topic.)
Of the 15% of players who actually log in more than once, many of them won’t know anything about EVE. They’ll look around, see what’s going on, decide poking around in their corvette or frigate isn’t cool enough, find out that a destroyer is bigger (and therefore obviously better), and that if they just wait 3-4 days they’ll be able to afford one! And hey, in the meantime, they can train skills for it!
I can guarantee you that’s exactly what will happen with about half of actual new players (not alts). It might be useful in some ways (since for instance it will encourage them to log on again after that first login), but it could harm in others - “I waited almost a week to get a cool ship and gear and poof, it blew up the first time I took it out!”.
I would advocate for progressive, participatory rewards. At one point EVE had as part of their “New player experience” a tree of tasks you could complete for various rewards. Find a wormhole, lose your pod, kill 5 NPCs, mine 1,000m3 of ore, manufacture 3 items, that sort of thing. Each stage had a reward.
There are multiple ways to structure it, some much better than others. Putting in a mechanic that allows players to consistently go out and engage in different activities they can select from various options (so they aren’t confined to “oh today my only option is mining, I hate mining”). With a decent reward for casual low-end gameplay (which could include modules, ships, LP or SP as well as ISK) this would encourage participation and growth of game knowledge as well as give them something to do if they suffer a loss - so long as at least some tasks could be completed in a corvette.
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Just watch out for the rental deposit. 
It seems pretty easy to make ISK in this game once you learn how to play. This is a complex game. It seems to me that rather than just throwing ISK at the problem, the real long term solution is to revisit the new player career missions and expand them to better teach new players how to play.
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True, but CCP has been trying this for years and never come up with anything decent yet. If we’re going to talk about approaches that CCP could/should use that are far beyond their ability to implement, we lose any meaning to the discussion.
Sticking to concepts/changes that CCP could actually implement, that would have a positive effect on the game environment, participation, and retention, has at least the slight potential to yield something worthwhile.
Very slight.
hmmm, let me answer your statement/questions as points.
1.) yes it is stupid, and here is why…if it smacks of carebearism, or pandering to carebearism then the idea is stupid. And as to Vets being rich or seemingly rich…well a veteran has time in the game, and that being said quite a few of them have acquired stuff, and in doing so acquired the knowledge on how to get said stuff and how to market it. It took me 3 1/2 years before i made my first alt(second account) because it took me that long to use it effectively (knowledge gained) and then it snowballed from there.
I am a Rich, not a stupid Rich, just Rich veteran in this game, but i have friends and acquaintances and we help each other out, we socialize. And for those that come to us that really listen to us, well they become self sufficient and rich too far quicker than those that do not ask questions or socialize without wallet warrioring.
2.) Newbies are not set up to fail. there is rookie help, they have NPC chats, they have local they can holler in, the forum here is full of debates, arguments, and answers if they come looking. In my experience (cause i have seen quite a lot do this) 9 out of 10 players that come here can not wrap their head around losing their stuff to an NPC or a player when they blow up, or do not want to heed advice, and then get mad when you wont SRP something cause they blew you off. Once, maybe twice, but the third time the same exact stupid thing for the same exact reason occurs…i tend to write off a player as stubborn or unwilling to learn, either way I start to ignore them until they show they want to learn how to play.
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If you don’t teach a player why they keep losing their ships, just giving them more ISK doesn’t help them progress. It just allows them to lose more ships.
Give a man a fish and feed him for the day.
Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime.
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I’m going to point out some key differences between Eve and real life that pertain to what UBI is arguably meant to address.
In Eve, a person can’t lose or be out of a job. Agents are always hiring and never run out of money. A person will always be issued a ship for free capable of completing at least some task to generate wealth.
In Eve, people don’t have necessary expenses. You don’t have to eat, or feed your family. You don’t need to rent or pay taxes on a place to live. All of your daily needs come at no charge. You can idle for an eternity making no money and never be in debt.
In Eve, you can never be infirm, you never grow old, you need no medication for any ailment as you will never develop any physical issues.
I don’t really think that UBI in Eve would really solve much. It would raise the lower bound on the ship that the most destitute fly, I suppose, but I don’t remember many people being so strapped for cash a corvette was all they could afford.
In the real world where things happen unpredictably and people may need some safety net or means by which to dig themselves out of an unfortunate situation, UBI seems like a reasonable proposal. In a game about pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, I don’t think I’m sold on the concept.
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This is going to be an irreconcilable difference between our positions because we fundamentally disagree on what the game we’re playing is even supposed to be.
People flying around in gifted equipment that they don’t have to care about losing is not something I believe is in line with Eve’s basic premises. That losing hurts is part of what makes Eve what it is. Having to worry about the consequences of your actions or mistakes, I think, instills the healthy caution a person playing the game should have.
Games where people go about willy nilly and do whatever without consequence are fine, too. If Eve wants to copy that direction, then obviously I couldn’t and wouldn’t stop it from happening. I don’t have to agree with it, though. That all your losses are virtual and have no bearing on your real life what-so-ever is already cutting you a big enough break to call Eve a game even if your losses still matter in the context of that game.
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The idea isn’t merely about “restarting,” but restarting at a level that’s actually enjoyable and tolerable. Even with a Corvette buff, the player would still think that they’re back to square one. While it might be “character-building” to take major losses early on (which is a moot point - adult brains are calcified past age 25 and hardly change in that regard), it’s also damaging toward new players’ desire for experimentation. If a new player jumps into low-sec and dies, they might remain committed to EVE, but at the same time decide that they’re “not doing that again,” and that’s not really a good thing. That’s how you get 75% of the game’s population living in high-sec. So I’m exploring universal income as a potential solution for this problem.
The upper limits of potential are only achieved by a select few individuals. Most players don’t/can’t play at that level, especially if they’re new. You can’t judge a system by its outliers.
I don’t think you know me very well, and that’s fine, but you should at least read everything I wrote instead of just the title. I very specifically stated, multiple times, that I’m not arguing in favor of the idea, but exploring its effects, and playing devil’s advocate as necessary (from both sides).
This is a fault of game design. CCP has consistently proven to be bad at creating a proper “New Player Experience”. Cruddy tutorials do not a good first impression make.
I played a lot of Planetside 2. Do you want to know how the NPE was like there? The game literally drop-podded your level 1 ass into the biggest engagement on the server.
I’ve talked about the NPE in other threads. Two of my particular ideas included having an NPC wingman guiding you around scripted events (creates impetus for the player), and just straight-up hiring some extra GMs to take on an active role-playing function and run the rookie NPC corporations manually. Anyways, that’s for a different thread.
This already happens naturally, as players save their own money to buy shiny, bigger ships. A universal income wouldn’t change much in this regard, aside from maybe expanding the scale of purchases.
As mentioned earlier, the universal income would also be progressive. It wouldn’t be smart to give a day-old player large amounts of money, but two or three weeks in, the ability to replace a cruiser-sized ship daily might increase participation. Once again, might. I don’t know what would actually happen, and this is only a thought exercise.
The OP has pointed out multiple times what the thought experiment is meant to address: getting less wealthy players into situations where they feel less uncomfortable taking risks with their limited assets. And about alleviating the grind time to achieve minimal useable assets like ships.
If you want to talk about “differences between EVE and real life” you should keep in mind that you can’t put down real life and walk away from it, you don’t have the choice of downloading and playing another real life that suits you better, and real life doesn’t have to keep you engaged in order to participate in it.
EVE is a game and a business and it needs to address issues like the fact that new players and casual players are today competing directly against 5-15 year vets in the game no matter where they go. When you mention “a game about pulling yourself up by the bootstraps”, keep in mind that maybe 10 or 12 years ago that was the case. Today it’s a game about the experienced and wealthy and capable using every advantage they can to amass as much as they can, and devil take the hindmost.
A game can’t continue existing solely on the premise that it started out with almost 2 decades ago. It needs to adjust to an evolving internal environment and an evolving external marketplace. EVE has been out of touch with both for far too long.
Ahh the old style of NPE; here’s a spaceship, screw you.
Best NPE ever.
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