Actually it was. I shouldn’t have had to add the faction warfare part because of one very simple reason: what is the subject of this forum post? Oh yes, its “Faction Warfare and Warp core stabilizers”.
Because if I start talking about PvP outside of faction warfare, I’d be doing a red herring since the discussion is Faction Warfare and Warp core stabilizers. Only reason I even got off those subjects was to address your red herrings.
If you want to discuss the merits of WCS in PvP outside of faction warfare, that would be a different discussion than this forum post. You want to drag this outside of faction warfare, I’ve been keeping it on topic while you have not.
Except for wasting a low slot. A bomber is better off using that slot for an agility buff to warp faster instead of a WCS that probably won’t save a ship that easily gets killed in one shot and should never be tackled. Fitting WCS is planning to fail.
That’s my point - saying ‘no legitimate reason’ implies that to do otherwise may be an exploit, which is not the case. It would better to say ‘no sensible reason’.
This whole quibble depends on one’s definition of ‘legitimate’ - I use Merriam-Webster’s “accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements”.
Actually, CCP writes the law within EVE… so going with your definition: there is no legitimate reason for having a WCS inside a FW complex…
FW complexes were supposed to be something fought in and over for FW pilots. CCP needed to offer an incentive for pilots to actually fight over them, so they gave LP for the capture of them.
Then farmers (as they do) began farming LP for ISK and doing everything they could to avoid PvP… which as I stated was the original purpose of the FW complexes. And how do you avoid PvP? WCS. So to make it harder to just farm complexes, CCP doesn’t allow WCS equipped ships into complexes.
There are a legitimate problem with WCS in FW complexes; and, CCP addressed it.
That is like saying a battleship in real life doesn’t need an engine and should instead be placed by a tugboat and stay in the fight win or lose with no option to strategically withdraw.
The idea of banning a useful module or an entire ship type (ventures evidently) seems like a using a tourniquet on the neck to prevent the bleeding of a head wound. The counter to warp stabilizers is more scram. Use it or don’t, but if they escape because you don’t have the scram strength that’s on you, not them I would think.
Also, T1 frigates add up after a while, and just because one person can buy five hundred of them doesn’t mean someone else should manage their isk in the same way. New people in Eve don’t have the resources to see ships as disposable as others and telling them that the ship they just made is “just a T1 frigate” is sort of missing the point, unless, like I am, you are willing to give them a bunch of them to try stuff out with. Being able to strategically withdraw from a fight is just as valid a tactic as starting a fight or not in the first place.
So… To the original poster @lynchy226, I don’t think this is going to change any time soon, so if you need to feel free to send me an Evemail ingame and I will see what I can do to hook you up with some ships. If you need them. I have no idea how long you have been in Eve or how you are doing resource wise so maybe you don’t need this, but still, if you do the offer stands.
Yah, that sucks almost as bad as not being able to launch them at the exit ports of Jita, I don’t know why I want to be able to do that, but by all of everyone else’s gods and goddesses I want to do it in the worst way.
Maybe I want to just see the mad scramble as suddenly hundreds of people see this OMINOUS THING coming at them… I’m honestly not evil, but but but… Well I do have a sense of humor.
Maybe that’s it.
No, because a battleship having speed allows it to win fights. It can keep the battleship at a favorable range, allow it to chase down and destroy an enemy ship that wants to escape, etc. WCS will never allow you to win, it can only (possibly) prevent you from losing a fight you should have been smart enough to avoid entirely.
Also, T1 frigates add up after a while
They really don’t. Unless you’re a day old newbie funding an infinite amount of T1 frigates is easy. And I’d much rather err on the side of “get used to losing stuff” than reinforce the carebear mentality that every loss is a devastating blow and must be avoided at all costs.
The reason that WCS and Ventures were banned in the first place was because FW Farmers and bots would run Plexes and couldn’t be caught. It’s hard enough to try to catch a bot but they have WCS forget it.
Yah they kinda do, even after a year, I spend a month learning PvP, fail dismally because I die before I know I’m in a fight (Yes, I truly do suck at this) and poof, ~200m down the tube. Honestly it WAS fun… why I don’t know but it was.
“WCS will never allow you to win, it can only (possibly) prevent you from losing a fight you should have been smart enough to avoid entirely.”
I don’t agree with that, they would allow you to hop into and out of a fight and chop away at a stronger enemy giving your self time to recover even if its just 200km away. I’ve done this to provoke gate camps to get out of my way so I could escape systems I found my self stuck in. They got so angry that they couldn’t catch me they started making mistakes (and thinking I was part of some larger faction they didn’t like) and after I had gotten them away from the gate I zoomed on through and got the hell out of the area. There were a couple of times where if I hadn’t had warp core stabilizers I would have been gotten and smushed. To me its a totally valid tool and in my case most of the fights I get in are ones I shouldn’t have gotten into, but it wasn’t up to me.
The main thing though is the original poster came up with his own fit, he’s learned! This to me means that he should be able to use it, or at least try it out to see how it does.
Ok, so see below for the rest, I’m starting to see why, but I don’t like it at all.
So… @Spitfire1938 the rest of Eve gets punished for the existence of bots? This makes me wonder if a lot of the other rather odious changes were related to bots as well, if so that sucks.
If people botting are going to dictate how we play then we have a very very serious (at least as serious as it gets in a game) problem. However this is not a solution, this is a poor workaround that screws everyone but the botters because I would think they would just do something other thing like… I don’t know, inertial stabilizers that allow them to align fast and take off as soon as someone real pops up on grid… right? So the trick is to… monitor for precision and repetition I guess, but now that I think of it that would just make them add random timers or something…
aww crap.
It wasn’t just the bots, it were the farmers as well. People who were “in” FW but were only there to get LP. I could care less what happens to either of those two groups, I’m in FW to get fights. Plexes are meant to be a point of conflict, and WCs and Ventures defeat that purpose. And yes, a lot of botters and farmers now use Inertial Stabs, but I’m fine with that. Why? because inertial stabs make the sig bloom to the size of the moon which makes it easier to lock the ship.
Any enemy who isn’t an idiot is either going to permanently tank you by repairing while you disengage or just leave. Nobody is going to let you “chop away at them” and win that fight.
To me its a totally valid tool and in my case most of the fights I get in are ones I shouldn’t have gotten into, but it wasn’t up to me.
It’s absolutely up to you. You could have scouted properly, but instead you decided to jump blindly into dangerous situations and hope that your crippled ship is able to WCS its way out of trouble.
This to me means that he should be able to use it
No it doesn’t. Throwing together an idea does not mean that every other game design concern should be ignored.
So… @Spitfire1938 the rest of Eve gets punished for the existence of bots?
Bots, and bot-like players. Legitimate players who don’t suck at EVE were never using those WCS fits in the first place and are not punished at all. Banning WCS forces people to learn how to stop sucking at EVE and win.
Your example is you using WCS to avoid PvP. The entire reason WCS (and Ventures) are no longer allowed in FW complexes is because FW complexes are about encouraging PvP, which is the oppisite of avoiding it. Your example runs counter to the point you’re trying to make about them being a valid module for use in PvP. In short, its a bad example.
Take a good look at the recent changes to ratting in null sec. Do you think the dynamic ratting payout system has anything to do with something besides botters and farmers? Botters are generally run by people who are doing RMT; which is one of the primary reasons botting is banned. Its a lot easier to prove botting than it is to prove an RMT transaction; especially in Eve where people will throw new players millions of ISK to help them get started.
There is never going to be a solution to botting. Every ‘solution’ the botters will find a workaround. Its how the world works. I’m sure they’ll have a workaround the dynamic ratting system soon… if they don’t already.
Here’s the issue with his own fit: He’s crippling his own ship. Sure, he can get away from kitey ships and he’ll likely beat a kitey ship if he can get in close on them… except he won’t because he’s already planning on running from a kitey ship which is why he wants to use WCS. So, he’s going to want to fit other brawling ships…
And do you know what’s going to happen if he goes after a brawling ship? The opposing ship is going to get a faster lock and start applying damage earlier. The opposing ship is likely going to have more damage output or more tank. And that means he’s going to lose. So, he’d be able to run away from the rock to his scissors; but, he has almost no chance of betting scissors.
He’d be far better off fitting a DDA for increased drone damage or (since he’s brawling) more armor tank, either resists, buffer, or active.
And finally, I’ll address this. Yes, Istab equipped ships would likely be able to get away from him. But do you know what happens to that Istab ship if he does get a scram on it? He’s going to burn it down quickly as he’ll lock faster and due to the sig radius increases his drones will apply better. And Istabs don’t completely crippled your ship in PvP… sure there is an increase is sig radius; but, you do have the ability to turn and accelerate faster, which can help with manual piloting…
Welp, that all makes sense actually, some of it still sucks, thanks botters.
Can players detect this sort of botting? If so, maybe making some sort of truce when they are present so that they can be reported and killed would be useful. I’m assuming here that CCP is using some sort of automatic system to find them, but shouldn’t they be kind of visible?
I’ve met people who target mining bots by stealing everything they produce before calling them in, so if people can spot mining bots, would it be possible to spot these ones?
Also thanks for explaining all that, it makes a good bit more sense now.
I believe there is an option to report someone as a bit via the in-game menu system… just like you can report ISK sellers. And I’ve heard that sometimes CCP will give you a reward if you report someone who is a bot… someone claimed they got some omega time for a successful report.
There are over 15k accounts logged into Eve most of the time. And everyone of them is sending and receiving data to the Eve server. That’s a lot of inputs to watch. And yes, Eve does have a system in place that looks for bots. But again, we are back to that whole “botters find workarounds” thing… preprogrammed input delays for each account so they don’t fire off the exact same command at the same time.
Heck, there are botters who have programs that respond to people in local somewhat. You can trick the bot since it looks for certain words to respond to, but that’s how far some of these botters have gone.