That must be some ballistic control you are fitting. The meta ballistic control gives the Vengeance 177.2 dps and the t2 ballistic control 182.5 dps.
shouldnt be suprised the dps is low? bro. with even 2 bcus on a vengeance it doesnt even equal 4 regular ass guns with no damage mod on a wolf. shouldnt be suprised⌠hah
shouldnt be suprised its totally fine for a wolf to crank out 400 dps while the jag and veng get left in the shitler
u serious? a t1 frig does more dmg ⌠this new change gonna be the new cyno ship in middle of the combat
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Personally, I do not think both Minmatar assault frigates should be buffed anymore than they should. They are both the speedest AFs with good transversal. Also with the speed bump, they will be able to make up for any gap of dps with right range control. The wolf having a new 3rd mid slot and jag having dps with a cpu buff will make them literally overpowered compared to other ships with speed and cpu disadvantage (eg Hawk, Retribution, Ishkur).
CCP needs to look at the whole meta including bonus type, speed, transversal plus scan resolution times, and not just look at a profile of a AF based on the number of slots or dps of a ship.
As I mentioned earlier ships like Hawks were already bad as it is the slowest AF ship in the game with limited damage profile (kinetic only) and a limited CPU profile that makes itâs two low slot nearly feels like 1 low slot. Same with other slow AFs like retribution or ishkurs.
The wolfs and jaguars already have a nice omni tank + good scan resolution times with great speed and now they will be further blessed with more dps, more mid/high slots and cpu bump. Speed and transversal are everything for a frigate and the Matars are already king.
The jag will have range control, but without range bonus, it needs to sit on top of its opponent to apply with rage. Forcing it to be within range of most other weapons to deal damage. Hence the tank bonus. The jag i think will be average, a good tank but meh dps. Remember, 40dps is locked in through drones, kill its drones and then its 150dps, which is much less and easier to evade by just burning away from it. Anything with dual webs, or even a single web that has a faster base speed will beat a jag.
The wolf has no flexibility with 2 mids. You can create 3 fits. A kite wolf that is an inferior svipul that has no defensive mods and no tank, or an ac brawler which has no range control and can be easily scram kited (like every sabre in existence that shares the same bonuses). The last is a small gang fit with a 400mm plate and autocannons that suffers from explo holes and lack of utility. It needs a 3rd mid, whether by removing its utility high or dropping a gun and upping its damage bonuses. This will allow a lot more variety in fits, both shield and armor, which is what minmatar are known for.
I still dont understand the kinetic lock hate. Its been caldariâs damage for years. A hawk does 213dps with 1 bcu/dcu AND has a 220dps tank using a pithum/gistum medium shield booster, plus an MWD, web and scram (see the fit i linked previously). Guess what has kin holes? T2 minmatar as well as practically every t1 ship. T2 minmatar being the most common and used ships in the game (sabre, bifrost, svipul, jaguar). Both things being equal, a hawk will eat a jag up as the hawk doesnt have as big of a resist hole and can out range a jag if you start the fight off correctly.
The hawk is slow because caldari is slow, the only caldari ships that id consider fast are the hookbill and nosprey, both are faction ships, not t2. The hawk after these changes will be plenty fast to do what it needs to. Also a LML hawk is considerably better than other LML AF (venge/jag). If you buff its speed, itll just turn into another garmur spam ship.
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By âdo the same thingâ I meant âfit a BCU and a dps rigâ as I described for the jag, which gives a vengeance 200 dps on the dot for a t1 rig or 211 for a t2 rig.
Vengeance with rockets and 2 BCUs: 181 with faction and 218 with rage. Wolf with 200mms and zero damage mods: 175 dps with faction and 195 with hail. Also, even if you jammed 5 gyros and two t2 dps rigs (which doesnât even fit) on a wolf it still doesnât do 400 dps with hail. Please stop pulling numbers out of your ass.
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I donât think we should just discount the contribution of drones for the jags. Remember drones gives a ship the flexibilty of range, quick damage application and continued combat even when jammed (hence why the dramiels are awesome). If drones means nothing then the ishkurs are in an even worse shapes. The hawks would welcome additional drones to buff up non-kinetic damages which are pathetic (around 110-140dps). Same goes with the retributions as it does not have any non-EM or non-Thermal damage application.
Kinetic-only application are bad because once that resistance is plugged on the defender, the hawk pretty much have no further advantage.
Jags and wolfs could easily plug their kinetic hole with their low slots just like the hawks have to plug their bad EM holes. At least the omni minmatar frigates have some initial resistance on their hole unlike the other racial classes.
As for LML AFs, the jags would do much better now as it still retains itâs natural speed to control range. For the hawks and vengeances, they are bad as when they lose range superiority easily (due to speed and transversal), u will be scrammed and have that initial range advantage neutralized anyway.
The jags and wolfs are overpowered already with itâs natural omni strength and speed before this AF buff. Adding more mid slots, dps or cpu hike for them would just turn this to Minmatar Online.
The other thing about range control superiority is the fact that AFs dies easily to energy neutralizers so the slowest ships in the class (like the hawks and retribution) always get the short straw.
People donât like seeing thier paper dps being mitigated. We used to have people clamoring for explosive damage dealing crystals for lasers back in the day too.
The fact that CCP has damage profiles on thier radar means that we will be seeing more of such calls.
A jag isnt doing 190 dps with missiles, its doing 150+40 (drones). Kill the drones and the jags damage is comparable to a hawk using non kinetic based weapons (10dps more, but less range).
Im not discounting their flexibility, im discounting the fact if youre smart, you shoot down the drones on a jag and then you force it into using faction or javelin rockets to apply to scram kiters, which reduces its damage further (120-130dps, right where the hawk is using non kinetic). Meanwhile the hawk can project 210dps out to edge of scram regardless of what the person is doing. Even in a straight up brawl, the hawk has a high chance of winning against the jag. The hawk is not some wimpy, useless AF. Its just EVERYONE goes, âlets put two MASB on it for muh tank bonusesâ and then cries about cpu and lowslot useage.
The retri will be doing 250-300dps and is 150m/s slower than a slicer. Its going to be good and will be able to keep range or melt any frigate that tries to get close.
Wolfs explo hole cannot be plugged unless you use x2 mods. Using a deadspace explo resist mod brings it to 45% IIRC. Lowest resist on the hawk is 55%. You dont fill in the wolfs explo hole unless you waste slots. You also dont fill the jags with a low slot, but a rig.
The kinetic lock compesates by having more damage than other missile boats. Also the hawk is not purely kinetic locked, it has a Rof bonus. Which, by the numbers you provided, matches up with a jag per missile damage (4 launchers on the hawk compared to 3 on the jag makes for closely equal dps numbers). However, the hawk has a velocity bonus to its missiles which is VERY good when brawling with rockets or shooting kiters with lml.
Lol at wolf and jag being overpowered. Some of the least used AF (esp the wolf), yet somehow they were overpowered. Then we end with the favorite quote from 2011 of minmatar online. That ship has sailed, lets not hide behind what was a period before massive rebalancing took place and brought numerous ships and weapon systems on par or drastically better than what minmatar had to offer. While minmatar sit and languish in their old stats while everything is buffed around them. So instead of waiting another 5 years for CCP to tweak some numbers on the other minmatar AF that needs adjustment, how bout we do it now?
To fix the wolf:
Nerf proposed wolf speed
Drop a gun or utility high
Move a high to a mid
Does that not seem reasonable to you?
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The last i remember a Hawkâs shield hole is 0% on the EM front. Not sure what changed. Caldari AFs are not getting any buffs at all despite their weaknesses in speed, scan resolution times and lack of CPU (in addition to their restricted bonus damage profile to kinetic only). They can surely use some CPU hike and drones too.
Continuing buffing up Minmatar frigates which already enjoy natural speed + transversal bonuses, good scan resolution times, omni tank and now with the jag buff (shield booster bonus, dps bonus, drones bonus, cpu hike bonus) will definitely tilt the imbalance further.
The wolf do not deserve a 3rd mid slot because of itâs already enhanced speed and tracking. With a smart low slot fit, it will handle any damage application well and slide out of troubles easily (again with itâs speed). This will unfairly tilt Faction warfare balance especially between Amarr and Minmatar.
In my opinion if any AFs need a buff, it will be the Hawk, Retribution and Vengeance. Remember Retribution is disadvantaged against Minmatar ships due to lack of non-EM/Thermal weapons while the Vengeance did not get the buffs that the Jag got (and still one of the slowest AF around).
The Minmatar Online quote ship has definitely not sailed.
The wolf needs itâs dps as the jag cannot dps (and at least 1 AF should be a dps version) so dropping a gun is not an option, dropping the utlity high or/and speed is an option thou.
Minimatar are no where near master race atm, its Gallente followed by caldari atm then only comes mini and amarr.
Hawk/Harpy/Enyo was the best AFâs before patch followed by Vengeance/wolf/ishkur followed by Jag/retribution, the enyo, hawk and harpy getting a massive increase in speed means they have plenty to sling shot now, you dont need as much speed as your enemy to catch them, just enough to sling shot.
And its similar for Hacâs best hacâs are Deimos/Cerb/ishtar followed by sacriledge/Eagle/Zealot/Vagabond followed in last place by Munnin.
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The hawk with 2 t2 EM rigs and dcu is 59%. The wolf with a deadspace explo plating and dcu is 54%. If you use additional slots on a wolf you are then sacrificing either range, speed or damage, something the hawk doesnt need to worry about. Jag is also cpu restricted, its a missile shield ship and CCP doesnt want it to be easy to do dual MASB fits. A pithum MSB, tackle and 1 BCU/dps rig+dcu requires a cpu module, sacrificing a low to fit a basic tank jag. Going dual MASB will be much harder and its dps will suffer more than a hawk. Caldari frigs/dessies dont use drones and never will, its a racial trait. Look at the moa/caracal, they have limited drone bays as they dont rely on drones.
All AF got speed/mass bonuses. Caldari and amarr ships are inherently slow, that is part of their racial balance. To compensate the caldari have range bonuses, so it doesnt matter if they get kited, they still hit. They also have higher buffer than other shield based ships. Caldari have the highest agility normally. Not the fastest but able to align and change direction quite quickly. Very useful for sling shotting. Amarr have extemely high optimals from lasers that project full damage out to point range, something minmatar cannot do (fighting in falloff). They also have higher armor buffer than other armor focused ships.
Yes amarr are stuck with em/thermal, but even slicers kill jags and ac wolves. Its not impossible, just harder. Same thing with kin lock. A hawk could range control an enyo and eventully bring its tank down at range while taking little damage. An ishkur might be harder, due to drones.
Scan res? That only matters for insta lock bull-. The difference between frigs is in tenths of a second. Certainly not a balancing point. If you want to go that route, a hawk/harpy have more targeting range than a wolf.
Yes, projectiles use transversal. A missile has ZERO transversal, and a hawk has 47-60km+ range with lml doing 142-170 dps. A wolf does 110dps at 25km using long range ammo. An arty wolf has 0 tank, while a lml hawk can still fit a MASB, web/point and a small shield extender for extra buffer. A hawk would kill a wolf with kite fits. A rocket hawk would destroy a brawl wolf as it can range control/scram kite and mitigate a huge portion of a wolfâs dps.
How will it tilt FW? You do realize amarr can fly those ships too right? Also, you are underestimating how much dps a retri can project. At 25km, it shoots 250dps. A wolf is doing less than half that. The wolf has no tank, the ret has a decent base buffer tank and can rep for over 1min while using mwd and beams.
All the wolf could do in that situation is run away. Even using aurora, the ret could hit close to 40km. Running away isnt really what id consider an assault role.
Should a brawl wolf encounter a kite retri, then thats what we would call a counter and happens with any ship. A 10mn ret would counter a brawl wolf for reference.
So, harpy, hawk and ret could all counter a kite wolf. Shall we continue on how âgoodâ you claim the wolf to be?
Not a 100% true. there is 1 good fit that works on the new wolf that would beat both kiting and brawling hawk but requires massive piloting skill, as itâs pretty hard not to get sling shot.
If you drop a gun from the wolf, increase a damage bonus to 10%, instead of 5%.
Got to be careful thou, CCP might just take the gun and give no damage bonus xD, also no need for utility high so having 2 utility highs would be even more pointless, unless you ment take the gun and the a high leave 1 utility high 3 turrets and 10% damage bonus, but ccp wouldnât do that as they like every ship to have the same amount of effective slots.
Youd have the same number of slots, just 1 less hi/gun. Like the jag. It would help solve fitting issues as well.
I feel like ccp will not remove the utility hi, as all AF have one.
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True I forgot completely about fitting that would be really nice, hmm Id prefer if 1 AF per race had the utlity high and the other had pure combat focus, not sure if others would prefer that as well.
Wait with 5 heats sinks and 6 range rigs or what? One heat sink puts a pulse Retribution to 197.7 dps with scorch at 16/19km.
You using officer heats sinks by any chance?
Im using a beam fit, not a pulse laser fit for oneâŚ
On SiSi, a focused beam ret goes like this:
x4 t2 focused beams
Compact point (or caldari point)
Compact mwd (or gistum for more cap)
SAAR
Nano
âRefugeâ adaptive plating
x2 t2 heat sinks
T2 locus
Aux pump (or cpu rig if you want to use t2 point)
Stats on SiSi with my skills (AF 5, all gun skills 5) is 300dps with multi at 16.3km+3.1 and 250 dps at 25km+3.1 using xray. That is before heat.
Its speed (from what i can recall) is 3200m/s cold and over 4k hot. Cap is over 2min. Its a beam slicer on steriods.
Cmon guys, look at the buffs they gave the ret and go on SiSi and see for yourself. Stop trying to exaggerate thingsâŚ
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Ah 2x heat sink, that explains it. Looks like that Suitonia fit without any damage control.