Februrary Balance Update - Assault Frigates and Assault Damage Controls

EVE Technology and Research Center Upcoming Features & Changes
143

So can a svipul, but it can field a tank with tackle.

Why fly a wolf when you can fly a svipul?

It can volley paper thin frigs with no tank (as can most things). Anything that projects will make it run away as the wolf has no tank, literally.

If assault frigates are made to assault, running away isnt exactly fitting of that role. Id rather not have to wait another 5 years for the wolf to be brought up to other levels of AF as far as flexibility and functionality go.

Also, why are you using mjolnir rockets on a hawk, which is kinetic bonused. A single bcu hawk gets 200+ dps using kinetic. Also youre wrong, hawk can fit a bcu.

x4 t2 rocket launchers

Small cap booster t2
Gistum ctype med shield booster (pithum if you want to use a 2% implant or meta the scram)
T2 scram
Compact web
Compact mwd

Crosslink compact bcu
Iffa dcu

x2 t2 EM rigs

That all fits on a current hawk. The difference between a meta bcu and t2 is a whopping 6 dps. That hawk spits out 213 dps with scourge rage rockets before heat and tanks 220dps before heat/drugs/implants.

So tell me again how a hawk cant fit a bcu and only does 118dps with the wrong ammo? You forget that a kinetic lock is a strong counter to minmatar t2 as well as almost every t1 ship.

If you want to use the cookie cutter dual MASB hawk, then expect sacrifices when going with a capless tank system by sacrificing fitting/damage.

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144

I think thats why the wolf is focused on speed now, I doubt a svipul can go 4km/s maybe close to 3, But I guess a wolf cant go 4k either becuase it has to armor tank : /

Yip nvm your right, the svipul does it better lol

Although the wolf has more tacking and range which is quite important, but the speed will be very close once the wolf is armor fit. Also this fit is no where near optimized just threw it together quick lol. Yea will be interesting to test Kite svipul vs wolf on Sisi see what its like in reality.

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145

In speed mode a single nano svipul goes 3k/s cold, does 316dps with faction emp/fusion/pp and 211 dps with uranium/sabot (25km range, plus tracking bonus).

The wolf does 220dps using faction short range and 146 with faction long range.

Essentially a svipul does wolf dps using long range ammo (that is also tracking bonused), can fit a tank (along with defensive web and tackle) and can switch to shorter range ammo for 300+ dps.

So if the wolf stays in its current layout, why would i use a wolf with artillery to kite with?

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146

Yea maybe instead of waiting for the wolf in next patch I’ll just fit up a proper svipul and use that rather, sad thou was looking forward to using a Projectile AF. Could you link me a good fit for it thou?

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147

Because the wolf is fun and more engageable than a svipul. Also more challenging to fly.

However, with the current wolf, its less a challenge and more a free kill for someone else.

This is a svipul fit i just threw together.
x4 280mm

1 RF MSE
mwd of your choice
T2 web
T2 point

T2 aux power core
x2 gyro
Nano

2 t2 extender rigs
1 t2 locus rig

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148

Yea I agree AF’s always seem more fun for some reason, but no point if its out classed in everyway. And thanks for the fit bro. I’m still excited to try auto kite wolf but arties just don’t work on it, and you cant auto kite a svipul because no fall off xD.

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149

Meanwhile all other assault frigates have less trouble fitting t2 damage controls. meta scrams (faint epsilon) and mwds. Compact everything on a frigates is kinda :-/

I know what a Hawk can do. If we are really accurate, a Hawk with scourge rage rockets and no ballistic control will to 25 dps to an Enyos armor and 89 dps to a jaguar’s shield.
The thing about the jaguar is that you can choose whatever damage type you want with more damage than the Hawk can do with one.
Anyhow, the assault frigates would be better suited for punching a few ship classed up in size.

Against each other it looks pretty even:

Hawk and Vengeance beats jaguar and Retribution (but that’s not hard and most t1 frigates will beat a Retribution)
Enyo and Ishkur beats wolf, jaguar, Retribution
Harpy beats arty wolf most of the time
arty wolf beats everything frigate and t1 and 2 destroyer sized with an afterburner on
all ships in EVE beat a Retribution
an afterburner and pulse Retribution may beat an Apoc, Navy Apoc, Abbadon, Raven (sometimes), Vengeance (sometimes), Talos, Naga, tornado and Oracle (that’s what I have so far). T1 cruisers sometimes but only a few.

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150

I think if you’re going by cookie cutter fits, yes, other AF don’t need meta modules to an extent. If you look at trying to be more unique or fitting for a purpose, a lot of AF need meta mods to fit what you’re trying to do with them (in some cases, you need to use faction mods to make it work).

Scram Kite Ishkur:

x3 125mm rail guns

fleeting compact web
initiated compact scram
y-t8 compact mwd

T2 DCU
SAAR
vortex compact mag stab
t2 mag stab

Rigs:
x2 T2 Transverse bulkhead

Dual Rep Vengeance (stable with 1 rep, 3m with both)
x4 rocket launchers
corpii c-type small nos

5mn y-t8 mwd
j5b enduring scram
x5 enduring web

iffa dcu
corpii a-type rep
t2 BCU
SAAR

T2 aux pump
T2 cap control circuit

Retribution:
x4 focused beam

gistii C-type 5mn MWD
Initiated compact disruptor (can use caldari if you want to spend the money)

SAAR
nano
x2 T2 heat sink
’Refuge’ adaptive nano plating

T2 Locus Rig
T1 ACR (after update, this can be a nano pump since retri is getting PG buff)

The retribution is going to be amazingly good after this update. I don’t think you quite understand how much damage a beam ret will be able to do (that fit above will do 300+ dps now with multi and 250+ with Xray) now. Its going to be a slicer on steroids without being gimped by cap like the beam slicer. Its also considerably faster now.

Yes, an enyo with high kinetic resist is not the best thing to engage in with a hawk. You can out tank an enyo and he’ll be facing the same problem against your high thermal resist though. Your numbers back up my claim of t2 kinetic lock being good against t2 minmatar and t1 ships in general.

I don’t have any problems with the jag’s DPS, i have a problem with the wolf’s slot layout and fitting. They literally could change nothing else but move a high to a mid and give it +5-8 PG/CPU and that would be perfect to tinker with. It would fill the gap for a projectile scram kiter using a/c’s or arty, as well as improving the existing arty kite wolf to be competitive (but not better) with things like the svipul.

2 Likes
151

I’ll reiterate this (loudly) so you can hear us all the way in iceland:

breathes

GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!
GIVE THE WOLF A 3RD MID!

I got it out of my system

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152

Out of curiosity, how does one with an office web on a frigate to have the web range you need for a long range gun??

153

squints

What?

154

Webs on kitey ships are not to keep webs on them, you kite and keep the web overheated, so that when they try sling shot you, you wait till they 13km away and then put 1 cycle of overheated web on them, so that they cant land their scram on you, a 50mil web will increase this range to 17km I think not 100% sure but that makes it much stronger.

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155

Oh thank you for telling me. I would have never guessed what a web is for.

My question was, how does one fit an officer web with the range necessary to use it on a ship that outruns all other ships of the same class with a long range gun?

Another almost unrelated question. Where does one fit a web on a Retribution?

156

Your question made it seem like you had no idea, use in game fitting window. But if you want to be op and outrun everything just use a orthrus if something can burn at you just scram it before it can scram you and you win, warp out if they have anything that can challenge you (most ships of the same class cant reach your point range so you should be fine 90% of the time), Officer web will make a great kill mail nothing else.

Or just use a web ranged bonus ship…

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157

As one of the Projectile Turret Jaguar Pilots, I would prefer that you allow 3 turrets and 1 launcher along with your change to allow 3 launchers and 1 turret. On the other hand, how about adding some mid slots (2 or 3) to the wolf?

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158

No ship class below a battleship can even fit a purple web, since they need 4000 powergrid, silly.
My point was that the wolf does not have a problem kiting with artilleries and at the end of a long point you are out of web range anyways.

159

Your still not making any sense, are you asking CCP to remove the huge power grid on officer webs, are you asking what the point of the officer web even is? The only place I think it was used publicly was on a Alliance tourney flag ship bhaalgorn as far as I remember, where it is extremely powerful. Maybe try clarify your main question and what type of answer you are looking for instead of something vague.

“How does one with an officer web on a frigate?” can’t place on a frigate, “have the web range you need for a long range gun?” what???

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160

So we should just drop mids from every ship then. Per your logic, there is no need to have webs on a kite ship, correct? Or webs on any ship that is fast and attempting to kite. My fleet cane is fast for a BC, does it not need a web either?

You’re focusing too much on standard arty kite fits and not other fits that the wolf could take advantage of (scram kite using artillery or autocannons, fleet comps).

Your logic:
“The Nosprey can use RLML and is fast for a cruiser, has 6 mids, so it doesn’t deserve those mids for a defensive web cause it has RLML. Who cares that it could also fit HAMS or HML that could make use of the web.”

Scram kiting is significantly different from standard kiting and is actually very good in places like nullsec. Having a 3rd mid opens up the wolf to scram kiting with a/c’s and artillery, as it will actually have range control. Or gives it the option to fit a cap booster (if you wanted to be weird with a dual rep fit), an MSE (to take advantage of minmatar t2 resists, unlike armor fitment) or several other options for utility/EWAR in a gang.

You’re asking why we would give the option to fit a web on the fastest assault frigate, when you seem to forget that the orthrus and garmur exist. If CCP were really worried about fast ships and not giving them ways to defensively screen themselves, those ships would not have long range scrams with the speed they have. Yet, here we are…

Historically, amarr sacrifices mids for lows. They also do not have a ship that scram kites outside of the tormentor. Amarr have a very focused design philosophy for their ships. The retribution matches their philosophy and embraces it after these buffs to make it an even better slicer, it doesn’t need to scram kite. Minmatar are designed around being flexible in both armor and shield configs. The wolf (and muninn) do not meet those design philosophies.

CCP is also not removing a laser ship from the amarr line and replacing it with something else that doesn’t fill the same role that the previous ship had. I cannot scram kite with the wolf in its current form. I could with the original Jaguar just fine.

I’d be fine if they nerfed the wolf’s speed should they adjust slot layout and fitting, as looking at it on SiSi, its a little silly. But trying to prevent a ship from being flexible from a fitting perspective because of “speed” is dumb.

4 Likes
161

Would be nice if CCP told us why exactly they don’t want the wolf and retri to have 3 mid’s then we could at least try and understand, its not like they would all of a sudden be mosters that can do the same damage from 40km away while pointing from those distances with nice tank/dps and speed becuase then you’d get an garmur / orthrus :P. But hell we have come a long way remember when retri had 1 mid T_T.

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162

It is unfortunate the new changes brings massive imbalance to the already disadvantaged Caldari assault frigates. Comparing below between a non-buffed Hawk vs the newly buffed Jaguar.

Firstly, the Hawk’s bonus damage profile only applies to kinetic, it is already among the slowest AFs in it’s class, it can’t use drones, it lacks CPU to take advantage of the new Assault Damage Control module while having a Ballistic Control System fitted (the 2 low slots available for a Hawk almost feel like it is just a 1 low slot ship with the lack of CPU).

This compares to the newly buffed Jaguar (when properly fitted) has improved dps (including drone damages that can be applied at range), sufficient CPU to fit the new Assault Damage Control AND a Ballistic Control System, damage profile for it’s rockets/missiles at across EM, Therma, Kinetic and Explosives and not to mention the Jaguar already enjoy one of the fastest AFs in the game.

I hope the devs will at least raise the CPU profile for the Hawk to keep it balanced (and add drones for the Hawk just like the Jaguar) or this whole AF rebalance project will just unfairly put the Caldari AFs to a disadvantaged racial class.

Keeping a healthy balance between the different racial class helps keep exciting rivalries between the AFs.

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