Jaguar to Strong

(Sexy Talvanen) #1

I think the jaguar is to strong. Its a nice brawler but to many people use it like a ceptor. The Jaguar is pretty fast thats no secret. But the huge problem is that you can get it easly to 3km/s cold and a good tank. You need Interceptors V to get a lower sig than a Jaguar. And the Jaguar resistances are to good for the speed and sig. The 5 mids makes it not better. The Jaguar can nearly chatch everything with his speed can hold it for a few minutes.

I would put the resistances to 50 40 40 50 like many Minmatar T2 Ships and reduce the mid slots to 4.
It should get 15m³ drone cargo.
With these changes it becomes less tanky than a hawk but faster. It has the same dps Like the hawk but you can shoot the drones.

(Maekchu) #2

Psh… 3km/s. Those are some rookie numbers.

Malediction for life!

3 Likes
(Zachri) #3

to /= too

4 Likes
(Abruzzi Oskold) #4

What ship did you lose to a Jag?

6 Likes
(Sasha Viderzei) #5

I am currently learning solo PVP in Wolf.
Messing around in TEST space yesterday, catching ceptors sleeping on gates and getting my first kills/salt comments in Local.

Then this Jaguar meet me on a gate. Let’s try ! I get in range, scrap him and start pew pewing with my smol ACs, doing few damage to his shields. He scram me and try to kite my ship, plundering my armor while I switch to Barrage ammo, which he can easily repair.

Since I’m new to PVP, I think that fight is lost and simply disengage, learned later that Jaguar are quite hard to kill and all. So yeah, not complaining, was happy to piss off VNI bots and all :slight_smile:

A question for the PVP veterans : that Wolf was sitting at ~6km from my ship (in second falloff). What could I have done to close the distance since I couldn’t use my MWD ? Also, what ammo is generally more useful against Minmatar ships ?

Thanks in advance !

1 Like
(Anderson Geten) #6

explosive vs armor T1, em vs shield T1, kinetic vs T2

(Mizhir) #7

The Wolf’s biggest weakness is that it can’t dictate range against a brawler, since it only has 2 mids. Against other kinds of targets it’s normally not an issue and even against softer targets it can still either push them off or break their tanks despite being in deep falloff. However a Jaguar is a strong brawler with a strong sustained tank so in this case it simply counters the wolf. In general the Jaguar is among the top for Assault frigates and in Assault frigate 1v1s it will come on top in most cases.

So there is not much you can do against a jaguar as a wolf since it’s a counter to your ship, just like the wolf counters laser ships or VNIs with EM drones.

Regarding ammo. First of all you need to predict if the fight will be on close range or not. You did the right thing by switching to Barrage. Here is a graph that displays a Wolf (using Suitonia’s fit) with close range ammo (EMP, PP, Fusion) in blue and a Wolf with barrage in orange:
image
So depending on the ship you will fight you can sort of predict which range the fight will be at. In this case the Jaguar fights at 7+km range since it doesn’t lose dps to being at range but can mitigate some of your damage.

Secondly there is damage types. t1 armour ships tend to have an explosive/kinetic resist hole so in most cases Fusion will be best, even in some cases where they plug the hole. Against t1 shield ships they tend to have EM and Thermal holes so EMP is best. Agaisnt t2 minmatar ships they have high EM and Thermal resists so Fusion is often the best choice, however Phased plasma is better against some shield tanked t2 minmatar ships. Hail is mostly for fighting bigger targets.

3 Likes
(Sasha Viderzei) #8

Thanks mate !

(PI farmer1) #9

You can easily pull at least 4000m/s cold in a jag, you haven’t trained your skills to 5 yet

(Will Riraille) #10

Okay, but where’s that mid you dropped going to go now that it’s not a mid anymore? You can’t just straight nix a slot on the Jag; unlike the Ishkur it has no drone bonuses (nor the overall drone bay) to justify the lack of a slot compared to the other AFs.

So where is this dropped mid going to go? To the high slots? Two utility highs… well that sounds like it would be very potent with the right fit, and it’s still a very fast, fairly tanky brawler. Do we give it an extra launcher hardpoint? Well if we did that we might as well strip out the drones entirely, since otherwise it likely out-DPS’s the Vengeance and Hawk.

What if we drop into the lows? Oh dear, we’ve only made it faster, and probably it’s still about as tanky and as killy.

It should be noted that most of the ‘frontliner’ combat ships for the Minmatar T2 line have 75/60 EM/therm resistance for their shields. Primarily it’s pure support and other more specialized ships- EWAR, 'ceptors, T2/3 destroyers (which are specialists and anti-tackle/-support boats)- that have the reduced profile, which comes in three main varieties; 50/40 EM/therm for support/specialists, 62.5/50 EM therm for Recons, and the grab-bag basically-nothing variety that is used for 'ceptors, covops, and T2 battleships.

Note that the Scimitar is unique in that it is a support/specialist ship which uses the full 75/50 profile instead of the reduced 50/40.

The Jag is clearly not a support/specialist ship, so using the 50/40 EM/therm profile doesn’t make much sense.

(Sexy Talvanen) #11

was looking on Pyfa all 5 and had 2 tank rigs in it. Yeah you can pimp the jag to 4km/s but then you lossing tank etc.

(Sexy Talvanen) #12

Didn’t notice that minmatar have special for each ship typ. But yeah makes sense then. You could move the mid to high + Launcher slot. Atm the thing is that you have same mids like a hawk more lows and a higher speed. With the extra High you can fix the damage problem on the jag and the utility or tank get lower. The jaguar is an hard counter to every armor tanked assault frig because you have the utility to pull range and play in fall off. Wolf, Vengeance, Ishkur and Enyo get a better chance agains the jaguar then. The Retribution is still bad agains the jaguar but that okay. With nearly every assault firg you have to choose between Prop Mod, Scram and Cap Booster or Prop Mod, Scram and Web. Only the Hawk and Jaguar can fit every thing and still have a gret tank.

(LouHodo) #13

LOL You must of lost to a Jag… they aren’t that good. Just wait till you run into Wolf.

No offense but 3km/s is SLOW for any frigate. LOL my Probe does 3.6km/s and my Breacher does 4km/s unheated.

And Minmatar ships are versatile so dont change its slot layout at all.

(Val en Thielles) #14

Jaguar is somewhat tailored for solo, so it is natural that it should outperform other assault frigates in 1v1 matchups, which perform better in groups. It has a bonus for active tank, few low slots, many mid slots, low DPS split between drones and launchers. What you have here is a ship that can be its own logistics and tackle, but one that does not stack up very well in groups. In comparison the Wolf lacks the control or long range damage to be very efficient at solo, but with all its low slots can get good damage output and an extensive buffer tank that can be supported by logistics. Jaguar can still perform the hard tackle role in a group, but still that’s a thing it does by itself.

Not to say Jaguar fleets can’t be a thing or Wolf can’t be flown solo, but in the end some ships are going to be better for some things.

That’s only because of the resists and it is pretty good for nearly everything else.

(Will Riraille) #15

Pretty sure that goes for all of the T2 ships, actually.

Then you have to axe the drone bay. Theoretically I’m not opposed to this because I dislike the drone requirement for the Jag because I dislike drone management in general but if you just go to 4 launchers/5 highs and retain the drones it gains significant DPS vs the Vengeance/Hawk which seems to be counter to your goal.

I would argue that a better way to fix the Jag’s damage (which is fairly decent if you include the drones, it just annoys me to include drones because I dislike drone management) is to axe the drone bay and then adjust the bonuses so that it has about as many launcher-equivalents as the Vengeance/Hawk do, accounting for the fact that the latter is damage locked and that the Jag gets an application bonus.

I do not think you understand the armor tanked AFs very well, since almost all of them have the means to actually deal with this.

The Wolf has a falloff bonus already, and probably does about as much DPS in falloff as the Jag does with Rage. Granted I don’t highly rate the brawl Wolf against other frigates outside of off-the-wall 10mn fits (they do exist), but even so the Wolf can fight in falloff with arguably the best weapon system to fight in falloff with, autocannons (and smalls, which are quite decent, rather than the terrible medium ACs).

The Vengeance may be slower but it has the exact same ability to project DPS as the Jaguar does. Perhaps it can’t apply Rage as well, but the extra launcher hardpoint and the strong capacitor allow it to both deal and facetank a lot of damage.

Also it’s worth noting that the Vengeance is a bit better able to patch its thermal resist hole than the Jag is with its kinetic hole.

The Ishkur can potentially project ~100 DPS from 0 to 60 km. That’s with T2 Acos, with T2 Hobs it’s up to ~120 DPS. A scramkite rail Ishkur is also IMO deceptively potent among scramkite AFs, but blaster Ishkurs are still quite good as well.

For a blaster fit, yes a scramkite strategy is good against the Enyo; the catch of course is surviving to get out of facemelt range. A railgun Enyo however has to be brawled. Really this is just a strength of rocket frigates in general, being able to play reactively against other brawl/scramkite/kite frigates by attacking them in the way that prevents them from applying damage to you.

The Retri is a terrible brawler that is only “bad” against the Jag because of the weapon system/resist profile comparison, with lasers being EM/therm locked and T2 Minmatar resists being heavy on EM/Therm resist.

Well that’s not strictly accurate; Retris are actually pretty bad brawlers but compensate by being strong kiting platforms, and the specific Retri/Jag matchup is tilted toward the Jag primarily because of the resist profile. Otherwise it’s too specific on range of initiation and pilot/player skill to say which is better.

In fairness most of the others can comfortably sustain off of a Nos, or potentially don’t mind the loss of range control that forgoing a web involves (as an example I suspect a dual rep Vengeance could run off an injector and still do well in brawls because of rocket’s ability to fairly easily project to 12-15 km, and the Ishkur has drones for 0-60 km application).

Conversely not all of them actually almost-totally rely on the injector to fuel their tank. In AAR+plate or AAR+resists configurations the armor AFs pretty comfortably run off of a Nos for supplemental cap. The Wolf and Vengeance sport capless guns to further aid this, while anywhere from 33-50% of an Ishkur’s DPS is a drone flight (also capless).

The Vengeance, the most direct comparison, does not really need an injector- an AAR+plate setup offers greater overall buffer, good EHP/s, and a strong ability to fuel it off of the robust capacitor it has.

The Hawk, by comparison, has godawful CPU that make ASB/dual ASB fits excruciatingly painful to assemble. Even then if the Jag is considered better than the Hawk it isn’t because of it having the same mid rack layout, it’s the fact that you have a third low slot to throw a coproc into so you don’t have to sacrifice rig slots to beef up the CPU. Even then you rather desperately need that coproc unless you are using some kind of lowsec-specific AB only nano fit.

Even then the Hawk still has a projection bonus that allows it to project Rage ammo to the edge of heated scram range, something the Jaguar is either unable to do, or must dedicate its rig slots to do.

1 Like
(LouHodo) #16

I guess you could say they fly true to their names.

Wolves hunt in packs, and Jaguars hunt alone.

1 Like
(Sasha Viderzei) #17

Well, I guess we’re back to what makes EVE strong.

Even if Wolf is more tailored to hunt in a wolfpack, I enjoy it alone, hunting down VNI botters in nullsec when I have the right wormhole connection ^^"

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