My first true PVP experience

PvP Gameplay Center PvP Ships & Modules
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Oï !
Today was a good day, as I managed to do what I consider to be my first “true” PVP experience. I’ve already killed a few ships, but generally with dumb high DPS no tank Catalyst on the gate of FW, or simply inactive players. What made today’s encounter was that after the fight, for how short it lasted, I actually managed to go back on the situation that happened and think about the numerous mistakes I had made.

First of all : the context. It was getting late for me and I was about to log off when one of my corp mate tell me there’s an Ishtar ratting in a nearby the nullsec system our static was linked (since we live in a wormhole). I gather my forces and jump in my trusty Hurricane for some emergent fight. My friend was in an Astero, slowly and stealthly approaching the HAC while I was on our side of the wormhole, waiting for him to be close enough. When he told me in the chat that he was 25km away from the target, I told him to decloak, burn in, and scramble the cruiser while I jumped and joined the fight.

I landed on this Serpentis Haven just as my friend scrambled the Ishtar, so with my trusty MWD I burnt in to add a second point, just in case, and a web when I was close enough. I pressed F1 and my guns started doing risible damage against the Ishtar’s shields, even with my Hobgoblins on it too. I thinked this dude was just burning his Assault Damage Control, so eventually his first layer will peel off faster after some minutes. I noticed that he took out Wasp drones and targeted me, melting my own shields and getting me midway through my armor when I noticed that my resistance modules were off… I turn them on, but damage is still going in and my buffer tank isn’t holding for rocks, while I set my drones on his to try to clear some DPS (which my fellow Astero also tried to do). I prealign my ship to the wormhole when I see I’m starting to get hull damage when his shields are only midway depleted, so I give the order to warp out and dock in the safety of our citadels, inside our wormhole.

Basically, I’ve noticed some of my mistakes.

First : the heat of the battle (and surely my sleepy state) almost got me a battlecruiser killed because I couldn’t activate my Armor Hardeners only when the fight was already lost.

Second : Buffer tank isn’t good enough, even in a 2v1 situation where I get focused.

Third : Medium AC do risible damage. I probably think it’s because of my shitty fit, but I already heard my corpmates telling me how medium artilleries are better (can’t seem to find a fit to get a full rack of those, even the smallest M sized ones).

Fourth : Using Phased Plasma against a ship that had a resist profile against those damage to be more effective against Serpentis… Wasn’t the brightest of the ideas.

I took a look at my fit and discovered it only did a dime 219 DPS, only a bit higher than my Astero friend… Here is the fit in question :

[Hurricane, Simulated Hurricane Fitting]
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I
1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor
Stasis Webifier II
F-12 Enduring Tracking Computer

425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I
425mm Medium ‘Scout’ Autocannon I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hobgoblin I x1

Phased Plasma M x10456
Tracking Speed Script x1
Optimal Range Script x1

I still have somewhat limited skills in Gunnery, and only have Minmatar Battlecruiser to III. However, I think that for something like a Battlecruiser, I should at least get something higher than a T1 Catalyst…

What I’m asking here is for you guys’ opinions. I know it’s hard to make an idea from simply text resuming a short battle, or a fail fit Hurricane, but I’ll take anything to get better at PVP. I tried taking a look at the Cyclone, but with HAM I get similar results (below average tank and almost same DPS, and my missiles skills are better than my guns’ ones). Also, if you guys could help me get a better fit for my Hurricane, using artilleries, that’d be great ! I have almost perfect fitting skills (only missing Advanced Weapon Upgrade V), and yet I still have some troubles fitting everything, even with 650mm racks.

Thanks in advance !

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Don’t be put off by the poor result, everyone sucks at first lol
I’m gonna write you a wall of text so bear with me
It’s true that medium acs are pretty weak right now, and they have been for a long time, but the hurricane is one of the few ships that can use them to any extent.

[Hurricane, Hurricane]

Medium Armor Repairer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
Skirmish Command Burst II, Interdiction Maneuvers Charge

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I

Acolyte II x5
Acolyte II x3

Barrage M x1200
Hail M x1200
Navy Cap Booster 800 x13
Nanite Repair Paste x232
Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M x1400
Republic Fleet EMP M x1400
Republic Fleet Fusion M x1400
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M x1400
Rapid Deployment Charge x300
Agency ‘Hardshell’ TB7 Dose III x1
Standard Drop Booster x1
Standard Exile Booster x1

This is my usual fit, some like to use damage control on 1 gyro, I feel like the 2nd is worth it to push the cold dps over 600 with faction ammo. Ultimately the choice is yours. That being said, an ishtar is a pretty difficult ship to kill even pve fit (hence why it gets used at all instead of a vni).

The main strength of autocannons is selectable damage type, so your only bringing phased plasma is a pretty critical error. Also, not using faction ammo in pvp is something akin to shooting yourself in the leg before the fight starts. And the hurricane is one of the naturally fastest battlecruisers, so I’m not a fan of the armour buffer cane because you are getting rid of basically the biggest strength of the hull. Think of it as a really big scram kiter (if you do frig pvp at all).

Arty is a whole different monster, and requires a very different way of playing. The t1 cane lacks the tracking bonus of the fleet cane which is a pretty serious drawback and you will need to practice a lot to reliably land your shots when you need to (it’s called transversal matching), but if you get good at it you will dump out alpha like a champ, and with the cane’s excellent speed they are extremely good at kiting. This is the fit I use for arty:

[Hurricane, artyboi]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Power Diagnostic System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Large F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

720mm ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
Skirmish Command Burst II, Rapid Deployment Charge

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II

Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x3

Nanite Repair Paste x183
Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M x1000
Republic Fleet EMP M x1000
Republic Fleet Fusion M x1000
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M x1000
Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M x1000
Agency ‘Overclocker’ SB9 Dose IV x1
Antipharmakon Iokira x1
Quafe Zero x1
Standard Drop Booster x1

This fit absolutely requires friends or an alt who can screen for you (and also tackle your target), the hurricane isn’t like a loki ie a 1 man army capable of killing anything it runs into. It’s also fairly tight on fitting, I need to use a 2% powergrid implant with it to make it fit. But it’s cheap and effective, it sits on 50k ehp and it goes 2k cold, and it dumps out a ton of damage if you can get it to hit.

Just remember when you’re making fits, it’s usually easier to play to the strengths of the ship than anything else. In the case of the hurricane, it’s fast and has a double damage bonus strapped to the hull. Battlecruisers also can naturally fit 1 link, so you should use that to your advantage because they are very strong.

Also, you really should train your gunnery support skills, navigation, and minmatar battlecruiser skill to at least 4, it makes a massive difference (to the tune of over half your damage or more)

If you have any other questions you can ask me personally on discord @CaFi#6098, I’m happy to help.

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Good, you noticed. In 90% of all cases it will be as you have observed and an active tank will usually be better than a buffer tank.

There are some exceptions to that but you don’t need to worry about that at the moment.

Very good observation. If it is a shield buffer Ishtar, I would recommend you use emp or that explosive damage ammo.

Actually no, I remember writing down my own experiences in the old forums, back when I went from carebearing to solo pvp over night.
The way you wrote it is as good as it is gonna get in terms of writing without visual aid, so no worries, all the good pvpers can imagine the situation just fine.

I can’t tell you much about the hurricane, since I don’t fly minmatar at all but I know a great deal on how to fit ships.

So in the lows I would remove the plate and the active hardeners and replace of active hardener with a second eanm and use the ‘prototype’ ones and put 2x armor repairers on.
If you can on tech 2 armor repairer and one ancillary one, which will help you with low skillpoints. When you get the skills to level 5, you will have the experience to use 2x tech 2 reps.
Replace the other 2 active hardeners with gyrostabs.

In the mids remove the tracking computer for a medium electrochemical (meta 4) cap injector and use navy 800 cap booster charges when your armor reps drained you capacitor down to 25-ish %.

That should last you long enough to shoot down that Ishtar.

Another thing is the amount of ammo you take with you. 10000+ charges of ammo is way too much and in my experience, you won’t be reloading your guns more than once, so only bring enough ammo for 2x reloading of your guns and fill your cargo bay with cap booster charges.

I also notice you have long point on your hurricane and I would recommend using a scrambler instead when you use close range guns, so in case you stumble on another Ishtar, that pilot doesn’t get funny ideas and burns away from you.
Use a long point, whenever you use long range guns, just as rule of thumb. It will serve you better.

In the highs, remove that drone link and put a more useful module between your guns like a small or medium smartbomb, depending on how much powergrid you have left.

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Good, don’t worry, when you learn combat you make mistakes after mistakes and then you learn from those. Buffer tank is good when you have logi on the field or when you plan fast hit and run strikes.

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Thanks for your answers, everyone ! I still have a somewhat limited access to the market since I live in a wormhole that doesn’t have an highsec static, but I’ll try to run errands when I get a nice chain.

Concerning what has been said about frigate PVP, I know it’s where a lot of people started and it’s a good way to learn the basics. I have a Wolf in my hangers to take some potshots in Nullsec, but I must admit I’m really not a fan of frigates. Yeah, the speed is great, but the tank can be so weak when you don’t really know what you’re doing, like me…
Also, even if they are slower, Battlecruiser open way more targets than frigates, or at least, that what I feel about my 'cane !

I’ll try to get the fitting done. Thanks you !

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You are right about your intuition and you should listen to it. I started in a Moa and also didn’t really know what I was doing but I am a quick study and for the most part, most of my intuition was right.
The only reason we suggest you start with frigates is that you can cover your losses very easy and painless, whereas bigger ships start to hurt your wallet a little more but there is no rule that states that you have to start with frigates.

Maybe in the future when you have more experience you find yourself in the mood to try frigate pvp, that’s all up you.
However, I have a feeling you will become an excellent pilot in the not so distant future.

Just keep going and listen to your gut and good luck out there!

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Frigate PvP can be cheaper, but it’s much more challenging. You mentioned the Wolf - it’s a T2 Hull, not really worth the insurance. Compared to an insured Hurricane there won’t be much ISK difference, and making mistakes in a Hurricane often won’t hurt as much as in a Wolf.
Furthermore a Hurricane will generate fights much faster and more often.

Why active? As you will fight often alone versus a single target, or a small gang, the generated “ehp” from an active tank will often be much bigger. Especially ancillary repairers perform extremly well, if heated! Think of the bait ability too, for example if using ACs to get closer.

When fighting against a small group you won’t kill the grid, always keep your low investment (insured) in mind, and try to kill the small ships like a Sabre, T3Ds, any T2 vessels. Just check the cost for a fitted Sabre. From now you have at least won the ISK war and experience gain. If using ACs, of course get the small brawler (don’t forget ADC), otherwise try to alpha the ranged.
Good Luck!

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Thanks for the help @Tradulix !

Yesterday, I decided to try some FW PVP with an alt more Specialized toward energy turrets and Amarr ships. It’s not the same as with Hurricane, of course, but I decided to try it. I managed to complete multiple plexes for the Amarr faction, with a pulse Maller, and at the end I’ve finally managed to get someone in a fight : an enemy Svipul. He engaged first at close range, doing quite good damage but getting some back, but he wasn’t disrupting or scramming me, strangely. When I dropped in hull, I simply warped out and docked in the station, repaired my ship, and went back to the fight.

There, I think he made a mistake because he was just slowboating right behind my ship, with 0 transversal. However, his active shield tank managed to hold and he probably realised his problems : scrambled me (not really a problem since I used an AB, but the speed of a MWD could have been appreciated, then, he simply orbited me at 500, and I couldn’t hit him anymore.

Basically, I think the problems I’ve encountered in the Maller with pulses could be transferred to my Hurricane : in a close range fit, I will have some real troubles with frigates. So maybe getting something like a Neutralizer in the highslot to keep the scramble down and MWD around, or a Stasis Webifier to align them with my guns would be better ? Also, I’ve noticed that with that Maller, I still couldn’t get past 300 DPS…

What do you think of that, everyone ?

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As a matter of interest, what happens if you orbit someone who’s orbiting you ? Is it a stalemate ?

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This idea went through my mind some times ago, and I tried it with Ventures : they just orbit each other in quite a beautiful dance, but they doesn’t really move an inch outside of their orbiting bubble.

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Try a 100mn afterburner (the compact one) and quad beams. DPS will be low but they will try to orbit you at 500m, which will prove to be difficult at those higher afterburner speeds.
What you gotta do it, burn in a straight line, preferable aligned to somewhere and let them try and they will have a really bad day.

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Interesting ! Thanks !

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A good idea for most brawling setups is neuts/nos and scram (+web, if you can). Versus bigger vessels you will profit from your nosferatu, because bigger ships have more cap. So nosferatu will help to sustain cap + a little bit neut can ■■■■ him, while you will still sustain. Versus smaller vessels the neut will shut down his propulsion and he will die soon.

Disruptor + web is more for kiting - the web becomes a defensive role to keep range.

If a Svipul is orbiting you under your tracking, don’t align stupid in one direction. Try to align always in his orbit. This will help your guns tracking him much better, because the guns doesn’t need to rotate that much. Your ship aligning takes a portion of the rotation!
Only keep aligned in one direction, if you know 100%, he will follow you, while you will hit him hard. Here comes the experience.
Sorry for my bad english.

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Thanks ! But I don’t really understand how I can align in his orbit :confused:

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Get used to tactical overlay and you will see his direction. It’s simple.

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The tactical overlay shows you a blue arrow, which is the direction vector of your selected target.
And while Tradulix may be right, it is a little easier to look like you made a mistake and don’t want to be in that situation.
This is more advanced and needs a lot of practice but you can appear to in a pickle and want to bail while your target believes she or he is in a good position to get a killmail and disregards his or hers own good.
Then what will happen is that in a haste to kill your boat she or he will take more risk because she or he is “winning” and you look like you try to bail out.
Now with that 100mn afterburner on a Maller you have a speed of approximately 1000m/s, maybe 1100m/s which doesn’t sound like much but once you overheat you will have a lot more speed.
That very same Maller should have a scram on, so your opponents cannot use her or his mwd to close is but you can use your beams to slowly kill her or him while she or he will disregard her or his own ship.
For svipuls you want to keep a distance of 7.5km-ish so you take as little damage as possible while inflicting a lot.
In case you get webbed, you overheat your afterburner to keep your distance.

I had an over-eager hecate pilot who thought he gets an easy Maller kill because he had 2 webs on me, he could keep me pinned - his hecate had some trouble staying in blaster range though and his 120 million isk boat succumbed to a 25 million isk boat that can be insured…
The magic of the thermodynamics skill book.

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Interesting ! I have 0 training in Thermodynamic skill tho…

I’ll take a look at those 100MN fit. However, on a ship without bonus to laser cap usage, won’t it be hard to keep the armor repairer, AB and guns firing ?

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Alright, I’m back after having done some research. This video is as truly interesting one about an arty Cane : https://youtu.be/8rGPsPWo65I

I must admit, I was quite impressionned that this dude could track something like an Astero under 20km with artilleries, and the alpha damage + selective damage convinced me to try his fit : https://zkillboard.com/kill/51509588/.

However, he did it with the Fleet Cane… Quite expensive for a newb in nullsec PVP like me. I noticed that the Hurricane have one less highslot compared to the Fleet Issue, and a little bit less EHP. I could try out this fit with the T1 version, and then maybe step up to the HFI when I have the experience and more money. Sleipnir is also an interesting ship, although I still have some time before I reach it, both in terms of hard or soft skills !

Also, I tried the MJD in PVE on one of my toon, quite an interesting tool. And since this Battlecruiser is exclusively range tanked… Could help me.

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That is what all our fellow pvpers have to figure out, the balance between your “income” and outgoing costs (of your losses).
Piece of advice, stick with t1 for as long as you can and write down the names of those whom suggest to fly a pirate ship in the first 2 weeks, then in 3 years you locator agent them and annihilate him and his alts for giving you bad advice.

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Sounds like something that you experienced ! Which side of the gun were you on is still to be found :3

Thanks for those great advices.