True I guess a bit less dps will be better for balance but not as low as the jag xD
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I think that proved the point precisely… 111dps and low tank…
The new Jag is lit 
show us your fit and a video on sisi of you
Summary
dying to
killing a ship of same class.
After tinkering with the jag a bit on SiSi, it really does need more dps. It has the same bonuses as a vengeance, but with one less launcher. The only thing it has going for it is that its bonuses apply to light missiles as well (only 1 of the vengeance bonuses apply to LML). Still, ~120dps using LML is pretty weak for an AF. Going the rocket route gives about 155dps, better but still very low (current arty jag did 182dps with high alpha). The vengeance gets 180dps using rage rockets and can tank 300dps with a good fit.
As others and myself have mentioned, giving it 3-4 drones would help bump up the dps to comparable levels of other AF. Alternatively, going with either a 7.5% damage and RoF bonus instead of the 5%, or a 10% damage bonus and 5% RoF would be good as well. Or go with 1 drone (keeping the breacher theme) and upping the damage bonuses.
The problem with forcing 30% of your damage into drones is that its more skills to train for a newish player to learn just to fly a jag for comparable damage to other ships. Whereas you would just need missile skills if you up the damage bonuses.
Simply put, it should be around 200-210dps with rockets/drones and around 170 with LML+drones to be competitive with other AF.
If its damage is low because it has a good tank, then id offer that both the vengeance and current hawk can get a comparable tank and still do better dps.
Retri looks very good though, my beam fit has been buffed where i dont need an ACR rig. Cant fit an ADCU but it wont need it as it can kite at 3k to 4k/s and cap is much improved. Basically a beefy, high dps slicer.
As far as the hawk goes, i would suggest 1 of 2 things should the shield boost bonus be dropped.
Trade the shield boost bonus for shield HP bonus. Something like 5% shield HP per level. Its a new bonus for AF and no other ship has a shield HP bonus. This pairs well with tbe ADCU as youll get a monsterous buffer to serve as heavy tackle when combined with buffer mods. It also opens up polarized fits where a tank bonus is useful (see polar navy aug). This creates a more unique ship rather than just make it a harpy with missiles.
The other option is to forfeit a tank bonus and go all in on missiles. Give it a missile explosion radius bonus, give a substantial fitting buff and more base shield HP. This opens it up to being very good with light missiles (think corax, but isnt terrible) and excellent application with rage rockets. Essentially a very good counter to inties or kiters as the missiles can hit (due to speed bonus) and apply very well.
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It would be nice if we could use assult frigates as heavy tackle. The problem is, only the jaguar seems to be able to fill that role at the moment, due to the high amount of midslots, and reasonable amount of lows for speed.
Looking at the other assault frigates, it doesn’t look as if you can do anything ‘new’ with them, only do what theyre currently doing slightly better. I’d love to be able to use the enyo, ishkur, or vengeance as heavy tacklers for instance, but you simply can’t get enough agility and speed out of a ship that needs its lowslots for tank.
Like with hacs, its going to come down to what role assault frigates can fill that can’t be filled by something like a t3d. For AF’s at least that would be speed, agility, and cap stability, something right now that none of the AF’s seem to have enough of, even with the buffs.
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Vengeance is a great tackle atm, passive jag was nice but you cant passive a jag anymore xD, but any active tanked ship that has no neut protection is just going to get 1 shorted out of cap and not be able to self rep anymore, it can hold scram web with 1 nos thou, but I think all AF’s would be better off with passive tank bonus’s rather than active or some type of neut resistance to counter, if they are truly meant for the hard tackle roll, unless 1 for each race is men’t for hard tackle the other is more solo orientated or something.
Something like:
Hard Tackle (Passive Bonus): Harpy (shield resi), Iskhur (armor hp), Vengeance (Armor resi), Jag (shield hp)
Solo (DPS) : Wolf, Enyo, Hawk, Retri
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MASB jag doesnt need cap and can use the adcu to survive a reload potentially. T2 shield minmatar and some t1 ships use shield boost bonuses as their tank bonus. This puts the jag inline with the other minmatar shield focused ships.
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That is true forgot about Aux, but I have tried many times on Sisi and it never lasts long enough to reload, usually about half way through reload, since rockets take for ever and a half to kill drones your usually dead before they all die and are unable to lower dps enough to finish the reload.
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After playing around with fittings for awhile, I do agree with most eveyone else that the Jaguar could use some more CPU and a tad more dps. Most decent fits end up needing a cpu rig + cpu low. Besides that honestly most everything else seems fine to good at this point. Maybe a little bit more CPU on the harpy but it’ll live without it.
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Just FYI everyone - the top dev post has been edited, and they are giving the Jaguar the Breacher’s drones!
Jaguar:
…
Drone Bandwidth increased to 10 (was 0)
Drone Bay increased to 20 (was 0)
A pair of Hobs adds 39.6 DPS, or a pair of Acolytes adds 34.6 DPS, either of which bring the Jag’s damage (with a BCU and a DPS rig) up to at least 190 DPS (cold). It also gets two flights, which is a nice little bonus compared to the Breacher.
I think I could be satisfied with this. I’m still a bit sad that the CPU is so tight and I’d love just a tiny bit more, and I still think a split missile/projectile jag would be interesting, but at least it’ll have worthwhile damage now.
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yeah this sounds nice.
1st it makes solo with it much more possible than before.
2nd it now hold a chance of going against other AF.
I like this change.
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Thanks for the notice.
Looks reasonable. I feel like itll be common to see pithum btype shield boosted jags now. Good tank and now about 190dps. The trade off appears to be poor range with rage rockets. So rocket fits will be about trying to hug them and face tank which it should do well at. Vulnerable to scram kiting, but drones will help slightly.
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Yip the jag looks much better now, will be interesting to see how it fairs on TQ. @CCP_Rise Thanks for the changes btw bro, was brave taking on one of the most beloved ship class in game with high emotions everywhere soz for all the stress bro lol.
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In shocking and unprecedented turn of events, CCP Rise adds drones during rebalance! News at 11.
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Can the Enyo get a little love? can we also get 2 more drones?
I am curious as to what CCP has planned for the wolf. I hope you dont leave it as is. Youre taking away a very adaptable projectile ship (jag) and replacing it with missiles (which is fine), leaving the only projectile ship choice in the AF line as the wolf. Which is not an adaptable ship due to either powergrid constraints, or slot layout.
I will post my long standing jag fit ive used for years as an example. It is a scram kiter using 280mm artillery.
Highs:
x3 280mm howitzers
Mids:
Republic fleet MSE
Compact web
Compact scram
Compact mwd
Lows:
x2 gyrostabilizers
Nano
T2 aux power core
Rigs
T2 collision accelerator
T2 shield extender
9k EHP
182dps (~210 heated) (able to project out to 25km using sabot/uranium to hit kiters like slicers)
2900 cold/4k heated
So thats the basics of that ship. You could also go autocannon fit with pretty much any setup you wanted for tank. The jag was flexible, the wolf is not.
Arty wolf is horrendous at fitting 280mm and any form of tank. It cannot scram kite and it has an explosive hole the size of a moon. Ac fit its reasonable but lacks range control. The falloff bonus does nothing but tickle someone at the edge of scram range.
The wolf NEEDS a 3rd mid to be competitive. Either by dropping the utility high, or removing a gun (upping the damage bonuses to compensate). This will enable proper scram fighting fits for both ac and arty, defensive web for arty kiters, or even an MSE for someone who wants to shield fit it for max dps. Dropping a turret could also help with powergrid constraints.
Speed, mass and cap looks to have been improved, though it would also help to give it some more cpu. Even now you can easily max out cpu with nothing but tackle and some gyros.
Regardless, please look at making some changes to the wolf. You even mentioned you were sad to take away the projectile jag away from the few who enjoy it, so please dont leave those of us who loved the arty jag with the inferior wolf.
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The mini t2 shield resists are wonderful and AF being the resistance heavy class, leaves the wolf in a really crappy spot having to deal with mini’s horrible armor resists the wolf being shield would fix all its problems, it’s still a fun ship to fly atm but its a little gimped with its 2 mid’s and massive explosive and kinetic hole’s, the only real thing going for it is that explosive isn’t a common damage type. Which also means that the wolf is limited in what it can engage as it’s advized not to touch drone ships with war 2’s or missile ships that can swap to exp missiles which leaves it only able to really engage gunship’s and atm the meta is very drone/missile heavy which leaves it quite lacking in the current meta.
Also because the wolf can’t kite with a web it is unable to kill drones while being kitey arty fit, and most ships in eve come with drones so it’s limited engagement profile come’s into play again. You can get around this by kiting with auto’s but most players prefer arty.
which is reflected on zkill: wolf is position 175
Compared to the better AF’s which are position: harpy position 143
Although in general AF’s are really low on Zkill atm hope after this patch that will change as they are the most fun ship’s to fly imo.
A request would be that AF’s and Hac’s sacrifice some of its total resi to fill holes and have a more balanced resist profile, it would suit its tanky nature better, this would make them much better for pvp but ofc it would make it worse at doing pve against specific rat types a sacrifice for sure.
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I fixed that for you.
Cool and the Hawk does 118 dps with mjolnir rage rockets and does not the the cpu for a ballistic control. Only scourge rage rockets put the value to 178.1 dps.
Maybe the jaguar can get a rapid-bajeebus doomsday turret and 100% powergrid and cpu reduction to HAW guns and capital shield boosters so the poor jaguar can compete.
Or 12 heavy fighter launch tubes?
Hi Guys. I like what you are doing so far but I will echo what others have said about fitting across the board.
Could you look at giving the Assault frigates a 10% boost to CPU and Powergrid across the board as this would enable us to run 1 less fitting mod and a little more utility or gank?
I would also echo that giving us some resistance to nos/neut would go some way to helping the heavy tackle aspect while not overpowering the class (I would prefer this over an ADU tbh).
Keep tweaking. Your getting there
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