Which is why Ambassador Malate’s current discussions with Lady Kador are important.
A Gallente will always see in divisions. Political questions reduce to “The interests of the workers versus executives” or “Artistic endowments versus profits” or “The Ocean vs Forest Faction”.
It is only natural to them. Every atom in their vast Federation sees itself as an important political party with brilliant ideas that must conform to no one.
This question of “collectivism vs individualism” is the same Gallente thinking - it sees our Way as a political party rather than what it is: a starting point, a means of action, a fundamental alternative. We are a whole.
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And it is very much not collectivist. The monarch exerts their will, which can be entirely self-serving and not concerned with the interests of anyone else, and their minions have the choice of minioning, or risking being killed after being turned in for disobedience by someone else whose self-interest lies in ambition.
Except we weren’t talking about the system managers. We were talking about the hangar grunts. And no, the specific ones I’m talking about (since, you know, this was about the Caldari I’ve known) weren’t using drones for schlepping crap across the hangar.
It wouldn’t be convincing on its own, no, but it would still be stronger than ‘I could totally give an example but I won’t’.
She’s talking about Heth, and the invasion of Luminaire.
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This is statement contradicts events which occurred in the past, which were recorded as objective facts by observers and historians.
Based on the removal of two constellations from this warzone, I consider it only fair that CONCORD allows the CEP to designate two Caldari constellations for immediate removal from the same warzone.
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Collectivism does not need to benefit the majority to be collectivism, nor does it imply a lack of violent threat. Any law is enforced under threat or there is no law at all. Just because an autocrat is involved doesn’t make it individualistic. On the contrary: Individualism is heavily repressed.
Hangar “grunts” who have a job because they can do things that machines can’t. Whether that’s using a pallet-jack or managing a deliveries system, it’s still quite a bit more than dumb labor.
Well let me put this in a way that doesn’t compromise the safety of people who have no one to protect them: Under a certain city, in a certain rail-train tunnel system, there is a confluence of utility lines that keeps an abandoned station warm and powered. Within you will find a variety of people who do not trust easily, but each have a story to tell. Many of them feel shame because of their hardships. Some of them feel anger or despair. They have nowhere to go and all they can do is stay alive until State police come knocking. Would you prompt them to commit ritual suicide?
Odd as this might sound I hold a great deal of respect for Tibus Heth. In a way he’s one of the greatest revolutionaries of the Caldari people and a vocal critic of the megacorporate hegemony. I suppose that’s why I wasn’t quite sure what Ms. Jenneth was getting at. Don’t let my criticism of the State give you the impression that I do not respect their right to define their own form of freedom. This entire discussion was predicated on my assertion that the Caldari are perfectly capable of recognizing oppression and since then it has veered off into something completely different.
You do understand what collectivism is, right? Where the whole (ie: society) is given priority over any single member of it—including the monarch—and the people, collectively, own all property and real estate…
As opposed to monarchy (esp absolute monarchy) where the desires and goals of the monarch—individually—have priority over the interests of the people as a whole. A good monarch is one whose interests align with their peoples’ but they don’t have to.
No. We were not talking about a general class of hangar grunts who include the systems management people. You know how I know that? I’m the one who specified them, and specified who they were. You don’t get to tell me that the people I got to know include a whole other group of people just because it helps you make the point you want to argue. The people I got to know were not the people you seem to think I got to know, and of the two of us, I know who I know, and you, clearly, don’t.
No, but I’m not Caldari. Then again, among my own Clan, if I were stealing electricity for heat and utility, without contributing to the Clan, it would… not be received well. I won’t say there’d be airlocks involved, but you know, we’re spacers. We’ve all lived on stations since the Rebellion, so I can’t say airlocks wouldn’t be involved
Would Caldari say they should commit ritual suicide? I don’t know. Maybe. At the very least, they’d probably say that ritual suicide is the more honorable choice, rather than continuing to steal and live a parasitic existence that contributes nothing.
See, you place intrinsic value on human life. The Caldari place value on contribution to the whole.
And which one’s right? Not my place to say, but I think both groups would say they have the right answer, and it’s the answer that fits their people. If you want to claim the right to declare them wrong… understand that they’ll claim the same about yours.
. . . Tibus Heth was a vocal critic of the megacorporate hegemony because it stood in the way of Tibus Heth. He embezzled funds. He stole military vessels. He undertook terrorist operations against his own people and ordered genocide against Caldari still living the traditional lifestyle of their people on Caldari Prime. He was not a reformer, he was a kleptocrat in reformer’s guise.
No, it has not, because all of the responses have been to say that it is not your place to determine what is oppression and what isn’t, nor is it your place to make claims on their behalf.
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“Society” can be defined and restricted to a class of people. The common serf contributes to that society but does not necessarily benefit from it or have rights within it. As with the Caldari: Those beneath the standards of a society can be excluded. “The collective” does not necessarily extend to every single person subject to its influence.
That’s a fine bunch of indignant sophistry but whether you like it or not the people you’ve described are specialized laborers. Frankly I think calling them “grunts” is a bit disrespectful.
Remember when we just spoke about collectives and who can be excluded from them? That’s mutual exclusion.
And an island of individual autonomy in a sea of suffocating megacorporate power. As far as genocide is concerned…well let’s be honest: I’ve lost count of the amount of people dead by my hand. How about you?
Oh I absolutely can, and I will. Again: I am not a fan of moral relativism. We can discuss right and wrong on equal terms and you won’t see me dismissing a dissenting opinion for no good reason. Denying the existence of oppression in a cultural system dominated by megacorporations is, in itself, quite laughable.
Perhaps there’s some misunderstanding on one or both sides, Mr. Redmane.
Tibus Heth was Templis, someone to whom having to live anywhere near an ethnic minority (no matter what they’ve done for the State) is oppression. He instituted some important, necessary reforms, but in the end he was a vocal critic of megacorporate hegemony because it didn’t answer to him.
The Caldari as a whole want to be left alone. The Templis Dragonaurs would most likely consider it a net positive if everyone, everywhere, who’s not ethnically Caldari simply died. It’s the difference between isolationism lightly flavored with xenophobia and distilled, murderous xenophobia that doesn’t seek friendships or alliances anywhere but between the Civire and Deteis.
That is who you’re praising right now. They’re the people who bombed Nouvelle Rouvenor back in the day, and they haven’t stopped making trouble since.
So, this is quite interesting.
(I’m a bit of a fan of moral relativism by the way though I sometimes have trouble sticking by that.)
Let’s see that again: “Denying the existence of oppression in a cultural system dominated by megacorporations is, in itself, quite laughable.”
So, by this reasoning, it’s not really anything that they do, it’s what they are? It sounds like even if they were completely benign and unobjectionable in their conduct (unlikely, but, could maybe happen), they’d still be oppressive by nature?
This isn’t a “gotcha” by the way; I’m genuinely curious if you feel the oppressive character is inherent to the structure itself.
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I’m not above praising someone who would rather see me dead, though that may be my clone bay death wish talking. If I can’t respect my enemy I shouldn’t ever expect them to respect me. Besides, I can’t say that us Gallente are any less guilty of the same sins. Federation forces bombarded Caldari Prime because the State refused to answer to them. I’m sure the Templis would cite the occasion as a good reason to hate us.
Actually, yes I’d say that’s accurate. Even Gallente corporations are oppressive as long as they can get away with it. If a corporation is large enough to govern its constituents and its own assets then it has carte blanche. That’s not to say the Caldari lack regulatory bodies, just that the megacorporations can and will push their legal and ethical limits in order to achieve their goals. The Federation seems to be doing something similar, and I am very concerned about it.
So … Mr. Redmane, there are a couple things here that might need explicating.
That is nicely open-minded of you, and you’re definitely correct: they would. They wouldn’t need that reason, though; they’d just use it to get other, more reasonable people to agree with them.
The Templis themselves don’t really need any specific reason to hate you, me, or anyone who isn’t pure-blooded, non-mixed Caldari. They’re a problem even for proven allies. Check out the history of the Waschii Uprising.
Admiring your enemies for their admirable qualities is admirable. Despising you might strike you as an admirable quality but I wouldn’t make it a reason to sympathize all on its own?
You said before you’re not a fan of moral relativism. Is there some other lens by which a murderous order of blood purity-obsessed xenophobes becomes admirable?
I mean, I am a moral relativist myself, but even I tend to draw the line at that kind of stupidity.
(To be clear, from a non-Templis Caldari perspective the Templis represent a form of corrupted virtue: ruthless reverence for inward-focused, isolationist ancestral ways taken to a breathtaking extreme that denies all other ways and sees no valid path but itself.)
(It’s not okay, not for anyone who lives anywhere near a Caldari. If you’re Caldari yourself, they’re the sort of people who will shoot all your Intaki neighbors, then tell you they did you a favor protecting you from those neighbors’ “foreign” influence. And maybe kill you, too, if you argue.)
Okay, so, this is a fascinating misunderstanding.
(You’re not the first I don’t think, but this is such a great example!)
When you’re looking at a State megacorp, you’re not really quite looking at a corporate entity in the Federal tradition. You’re looking at something that’s closer to a nation-state itself, albeit one that is part of a fairly tight-nit group of similar entities. They maintain a corporate structure and so on, but they don’t compete like Federal corporations, really. They compete more like rival Amarrian Great Houses.
Federal corporations as I understand it don’t need to care about their people; their employees aren’t really their responsibility. Absent contractual terms their welfare isn’t ultimately the corporation’s concern. Such a corporation’s main concern is its shareholders.
Caldari megacorps have their own citizens, their own culture. Few Caldari live outside of one. They do demand service, of course, but the corporations themselves are the shape of Caldari society in the modern age-- not parasites on it or even contributors to it, but the structure itself. They have different approaches, but it’ll be hard to find a Caldari who thinks a corporation’s chief duty is to its shareholders.
Taken together, they are the government. They don’t really have a purpose beyond the Caldari people. There was a time when the leadership began to treat the people as just a resource to be exploited, but the folly of that was a lesson learned pretty sharply some time ago. There will always be some risk of that, of course, but it’s not what drives the State’s problems now.
Yes, some people do lose their corporate citizenships and get ejected from society, but that’s not new and it’s not a special trait of the corporate structure. It’s an expression of the principle that when times get hard (and there are a lot of ways that can be interpreted as being the situation), those who can’t contribute can’t be allowed to stay.
Formally, it’s a little redundant to tell the Dissociated such heartless things as that they should honorably end their own lives. They already know that. They all know that. It’s an implicit part of that aspect of the society. To the Caldari, they’re already dead.
It’s not kind, no. But kindness isn’t what it’s for.
You seem well-intentioned, Mr. Redmane, but good intentions don’t go very far alone. The thing you point to as the cause of that misery isn’t its cause; fixing it, won’t end the misery. And from the sounds of things you might even replace it with something far darker.
If you want to really see, you might look and see whether one of the State-loyal groups is willing to host you for a while, provide a sort of base and source of advice while you travel and learn. I’m not sure whether any will be willing, but it might be worth the attempt at least.
Good intentions paired with poor understanding isn’t a combination famous for good outcomes.
The lens of raw practicality. I’ve spent some time down a wormhole or two as a pilot and that mindset is alive and well down in Anoikis. Unwanted neighbors are swiftly dealt with and random predatory attacks are anything but impolitic. It’s not even ethnically based, but rather almost entirely senseless violence. Luckily the vast majority of those in New Eden consider that sort of behavior undesirable and there are consequences for it.
That distinction is fair, though I would argue that the Federation being responsible for that welfare precludes the necessity of corporations managing such programs. Without that centralized system the megacorporations naturally took measures to cultivate a greater workforce, especially given the cultural drive toward contributing to the whole.
That’s a fair observation. I would like to say that I appreciate your thoughts on the matter and you have given me a lot to think about. Much of my time in Caldari space has been spent around the Sisters of EVE, though Hyasyoda and CPF have been gracious hosts in less-than-ideal circumstances.
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That doesn’t make feudalism collectivist. It just makes being a feudal serf suck.
Sophistry? You asked me if I knew more than Caldari capsuleers, so I described the people I knew. Then you decided to redefine the people I knew. So kindly sod off with your dishonest nonsense and accusations of sophistry.
That doesn’t make him a revolutionary. A criminal acts out of self-interest, but unless there is an actual goal of societal change, he’s not a revolutionary, he’s not a visionary, and he’s not a reformer. Heth was a criminal and a terrorist, out for personal power no matter what damage it caused to his people.
Did you ever start counting? Given your self-righteous idiocy here, I rather doubt it. But here’s a key difference: how many of those people who are ‘dead by [your] hand’ were you loudly claiming to be helping?
By my hand? One. A previous iteration of me killed herself to win a duel on a technicality. All in all, it’s probably good that she died. However, if you mean how many deaths am I directly or indirectly responsible for?
Depending on evacuation status… between 60 million and 2.75 billion… conservatively. It’s hard to say, since our sensors don’t tend to track baseliner escape pods or the ships used for evacuations. Within reasonably capability, though, yeah, I do tend to maintain at least a rough idea of what I’m responsible for.
But slaughter is not genocide. Genocide has other important components as well, like targeting those people specifically for some particular ethnic, national, or other ‘identity’ trait. Like, you know, the population of a specific world, not ‘whoever happens to be in that ship at this time’.
I think by now it should be clear that what you are or aren’t a fan of is utterly irrelevant. Oppression is in the eyes of the oppressed, and insisting that you get to define it for others… well, some might consider that oppressive.
It’s definitely obnoxious.
I can assure you that doesn’t mean much coming from someone that throws around insults instead of making valid points. You don’t see me labeling your thoughts as “dishonest crap” or “idiocy.” For someone who claims to be so open to other peoples’ ideas you sure are hostile about receiving them.
Well it appears things have veered completely off course.
However I will take this moment to thank you for your words Mantel.
I note we have conversed on multiple occasions, I look forward to hearing your further thoughts if this matter requires them.
I will wait on word from the Intake Assembly and will refrain from adding my voice further to non Federation entities.
May you fly well.
Please note I would also like to discuss some thoughts on Intaki’s security with you.
I will message you accordingly regarding the above
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I’m perfectly open to receiving your ideas. Your attempts to tell me who I do or don’t know, though, or to redefine Collectivism to mean literally any form of government that isn’t utter anarchy, not so much.
Hm. Arrendis, can I just pop in to mention I don’t think collectivism is anything specific?
It’s just a societal structure of concern that focuses predominantly on the good of the group over the individual. You could probably have a collectivist feudal society (the Amarrian ideal seems like it would count). Despite being based on individual merit in a corporate structure, Caldari society also definitely counts (that merit is deployed for the good of the society, not the good of the individual displaying it).
It seems like individualism versus collectivism is really just, “Are we supposed to be living mostly for ourselves, or each other?”
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As a political system, it tends to requires things like no individuals having special permissions above the interests of the group, and collective ownership of property. Less centrally-directed than similar systems, but no less part and parcel of collectivism.
But I’d be more tempted to let that go as variations on the theme, if not for the ‘no, I’m going to lecture you on how you are completely wrong about your own lived experience, including who the hell you actually know’ crap.
I thought it was less a specific political system and more an ideal or value, the counterpart to individualism?
(I mean, I think what you’re describing might have another name. Pure or true communism, something like that?)
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Excuse me?
Absolutely bold of you to assume that I do not care about the lives lost on the other side. As if I am perfectly happy with the massive loss of life in any of the ongoing conflicts in the cluster?? You so clearly do not know me so do not assume. When I said “my heart goes out to the Intaki people” I meant it. I meant it for every person who chooses to identify as Intaki and I did not say this in spite of those who identify as otherwise.
I do not like the violent nature of Intaki’s liberation but I am also not ignorant enough to believe it could have been avoided. The State held military control over the Intaki system and surrounding territories. How else was the Federation supposed to secure the Intaki homeworld from enemy hands? How else were we supposed to ensure that atrocities like the Turnur Catastophe did not happen to Federation chartered systems? Let me direct you to Auriga’s concise yet excellent post where he invites everyone to actually think about the situation at hand. President Aguard made exactly the correct decision here.
And I’m sorry, but what?
Are you talking about the massive number of Federal citizens who immigrated to the Federation by their own decision? Are you talking about the many tribal Minmatar in the Federation who freely express their own culture while also choosing to embrace other aspects of the wide range of cultures that can be found within the Federation? What exactly is so terrible about this? The Federation does not exercise a “soft power” it offers an opportunity to individuals across the cluster. One which people embrace because they desire it. Nobody is forcing these people to flock to the Federation or mix their own cultures with others and this entire paragraph of yours makes zero sense.
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