Ganking makes Eve a better place

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Torimika

So, I’m confused. What do you define as PvP in Eve? What makes something PvP?

What’s confusing ? If I go out ratting…everyone would agree that is PvE. There’s no other player involved. It is 100% player vs NPCs.

Likewise, if I go to nullsec and fight a one on one duel with someone…everyone would agree that is PvP. There’s no NPCs involved.

So if the entire basis, vessels, fit, ammo, lack of armour, max DPS, timing, and planning of my mission is BASED around the response of an NPC force and I have to divert that NPC force off somewhere else with an attack on the NPC force first in order to give ne time to attack a player…are people seriously telling me this is 100% PvP and there’s no PvE in it ?

…wanders off mumbling something about the Pope being a Catholic and what bears do in the woods.

[Githany_Red]

Sorry to repeat myself if I have , can remember where I posted my corps mining adventure.

Anyway we went mining to try it out , we picked a ganker known sys , broadcast in local that belt one was under our protection and mined away, after about an hour and a half combat probes were spotted and reds in local.

Now that should have been the time for us to leave , as it was our numbers had started to diminish, we don’t have what it takes to be miners

Anyway they attacked , our Ew burst frig fired off its Ew bomb and moved away from the gankers after taking heavy damage , our barge sent out it’s combat drones and killed a ganker that was floundering after losing its lock.

So the gankers failed , we did end up losing our Ew burst frig because it hit an NPC miner with its blast and their defence fleet warped in later and killed it .

(Just out of interest can you fight the NPC miners combat fleet , they didn’t seem very effective taking a long time to kill a frig )

So in the end we mined we made isk to cover our frig loss and isk in the bank , I believe what we did was PvP and mined , only one that had very little to do was our burst pilot sitting cloaked watching local and d-scan and then had 15 seconds of fun.

Like I previously wrote, the gank seemed a bit weak and and half-hearted , maybe being cockie thinking they could tak us with so few ships, or knowing we were baiting just testing what we had planned.

So from now on we will be covering mining ops in cloaked burst ship and trying to get miners to fit their ships to survive a gank better , you will never know we are there

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Scipio_Artelius

It’s the pvp part, that several people (me currently, but I’m not the only one) have been pointing out to you, is pvp.

Yes but my whole argument is that it is disingenuous to extract a ‘PvP part’ out of a mission that was planned with PvE at its very core. It is just not honest.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Cilla_Cybin

So if the entire basis, vessels, fit, ammo, lack of armour, max DPS, timing, and planning of my mission is BASED around the response of an NPC force

It isn’t entirely based just on CONCORD. That may be where your focus is leading you astray.

The calculation of how many ships, which ships, etc. is all based on what is needed to kill another player’s ship.

By definition, it’s not entirely about CONCORD. It’s just as much (and moreso) about what the other player is flying and what their fit is.

@Cilla_Cybin

it is disingenuous to extract a ‘PvP part’ out of a mission that was planned with PvE at its very core.

Simply because PVE isn’t at it’s very core.

However, you are certainly free to have a completely stupid opinion on things (not that you are stupid, despite my post above - just that this particular opinion is stupid), so good luck to you.

Meanwhile, gankers will continue to gank and it will still be a mystery why you have an issue with PVE I guess.

[Cilla_Cybin]

Just as a matter of interest…is a certain large mining corp in cahoots with Serpentis ? It’s just that every time I go ratting I never, ever, see Serpentis attack their massive fleets of mining ships. I have never ever come across one of their Ventures wrecked and abandoned…despite never seeing them fly a single drone. Hmmm.

I spent 2 hours today going round and round all 13 asteroid belts of a system…with plenty of large mining corp vessels…and never once saw the NPCs attacking the mining fleet, though they did come for me. I made quite a few ISK out of it all…in fact more than from mining…including one piece of loot worth 85m ISK. I demolished about 40 Serpentis craft…not one of which was attacking any mining fleet.

[Githany_Red]

What’s the story of these NPC miners , anyone know.

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Scipio_Artelius

The calculation of how many ships, which ships, etc. is all based on what is needed to kill another player’s ship.

By definition, it’s not entirely about CONCORD.

Oh come off it. The entire ganker craft and fit is BASED around what they can achieve at minimum cost and maximum DPS before Concord show up. It is Concord who determine that the gankers use a Catalyst with minimal shielding and just enough ammo to do the job. So the entire mission exists within a mould set by Concord.

If Concord did not exist, gankers would turn up in entirely different ships and fits. So yes…it is entirely about Concord. Well…for anyone not in denial it is.

And who said I had an issue with PvE ? Mining is boring…I spend a lot more time ratting, and even make more…and will move on to PvP in due course.

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Cilla_Cybin

Oh come off it. The entire ganker craft and fit is BASED around what they can achieve at minimum cost and maximum DPS

Maximum DPS to what?

[Torimika]

Well, no. If I go out ganking (which I have never done by the way, nor been ganked - but then again I’ve only been playing a few months), I am interacting with other players both directly (in actively attempting to blow up their ships) and indirectly (by attempting to second-guess their intentions and actions AND by influencing their potential behaviour in-game). So that is two different ways that high-sec ganking can be considered PvP. The fact that these interactions are influenced by the particulars of the environment in which it happens (such as the response times of CONCORD) doesn’t negate the player-player interactions that take place and define ganking as PvP.

That’s why I asked; I don’t understand why you are discounting the player-player aspect of ganking in identifying it as PvP or not. Whether NPCs are also involved or also influence the way that people behave does not negate the PvP-ness of ganking. Or at least you haven’t explained why the consideration of an environmental factor outweighs or nullifies these player-player interactions.

An example: I was in high-sec the other day ratting for escalations in my Dragoon. I kept getting Gilas and Vexors flying in and sitting amongst my drones, in the hopes that either 1/ my drones would aggress them and they could shoot me when I go suspect as a result or 2/ they would get the escalation instead of me. NPCs/AIs of two sorts were involved - the rats in the anomaly and the drones. Is this an example of PvP? I would argue that it is - my behaviour was causing a response in the other players and their behaviour was causing an alteration in mine, but it was all within the context of the particular environmental and NPC factors in our immediate environment.

[Aaaarrgg]

@Cilla_Cybin

Gankers fit their ships in advance because of Concord…so how can an NPC that directkly affects ship fit not make the entire exercise a battle with NPCs ??

in low sec are there not gate guns ie npc entities that folk fit to tank, does that make low sec pvp not pvp?

@Cilla_Cybin

What part of ’ it is impossible for an individual miner to fight back against half a dozen heavily armed Catalysts ’ wasn’t clear ?

6 against one will almost certainly end in the one exploding , that is basic eve.

@Cilla_Cybin

I was mining in a 0.5 system today. Four people with ‘terrible’ standing arrived in the system ( there were only 8 in the system anyway ). Did I flee ? No. I thought…heck, there’s 13 asteroid belts in this system and they have to search every single one to find me. After a couple of minutes, all 4 of them left.

Naturally I was aligned to my safe spot…I never flee to stations or stargates…but the idea that a miner should flee the minute gankers appear in the system ( especially if it has 13 asteroid belts ) is just nonsense. Let them get bored finding me.

spoilers, if they are looking for you it will only take few seconds to find you before they are in warp to you. but you already know that.

[Ramona_McCandless]

I think its safe to say ganking makes EvE a better place by showing who actually has a grasp of how the game works.

And educating those that dont.

[Cilla_Cybin]

If two people have a classic pistol duel, that is one person vs another. We all know the scene. If a robot steps in and shoots the first person after 10 seconds worth of each side missing…you’re saying its still a classic dual and the robot has no impact and is irrelevant.

Which is complete, self evident, nonsense. It doesn’t require a degree in quantum mechanics to understand.

[Alexa_Koschinov]

Im pretty sure the robot is relevant. What people here are trying to say is that you seem to identify the robot as the only concern for the duelists, whereas the reality is that in Eve, the other person’s ship and fit is arguably of higher relevance to the fight, since the gankers have to bring as many ships as it would take to kill the other person’s ship or perhaps even more. As such, this tends to give the encounter a pvp aspect which you seem to deny in favour of the pve narrative.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Cilla_Cybin

No it isn’t…when the entire advance planning, fitting, and timing of the mission is BASED on the response of an NPC force. If you have to BASE your fit around the response of an NPC force, and the actions of that force ENTIRELY determine your vessel, fit, weapons, lack of shielding, and you even have to divert that NPC force off somewhere else to give you more time…lol…it is quite frankly bordering on lunacy to suggest there is no PvE element and that the whole exercise is PvP !

It is PvP. They fit because they are unique constraints in the security system they are PvPing in. Gankers usually do fit a small tank as well depending if using ruppie/cata/coercer. I realize you don’t actually PvP or AG or gank so you have no idea.

And I know you’ll be like how do I know? I scanned their ships and have popped them homie

@Cilla_Cybin

So you’re telling me ( if others can do Cathy Newman so can I ) that when a bunch of gankers divert Concord off somewhere else and attack Condord to do so…that the mission is PvP ?

They cannot divert CONCORD off grid until after the gank. Hence why they use ibis’s at an Upwell in Uedama. The fact that you don’t know this says how inexperienced you are in this topic.

@Cilla_Cybin

Oh…of course you want to ONLY focus on the few seconds of attack on some miner…and completely ignore the entire rest of the mission whose vessels, fit, ammo, timing, and planning were all BASED on the PvE response of an NPC force. How convenient !

They are fitting for the parameters they are fighting in. Why is this so hard to understand? You have absolutely no point ROFL.

@Cilla_Cybin

What’s confusing ? If I go out ratting…everyone would agree that is PvE. There’s no other player involved. It is 100% player vs NPCs.

Yes, you are fighting NPCs. As soon as you shoot a player, it is PvP ROFL. Man. School must have been hard huh?

@Cilla_Cybin

Yes but my whole argument is that it is disingenuous to extract a ‘PvP part’ out of a mission that was planned with PvE at its very core. It is just not honest.

It is not PvE. They are not fighting CONCORD ROFL.

@Cilla_Cybin

Just as a matter of interest…is a certain large mining corp in cahoots with Serpentis ? It’s just that every time I go ratting I never, ever, see Serpentis attack their massive fleets of mining ships. I have never ever come across one of their Ventures wrecked and abandoned…despite never seeing them fly a single drone. Hmmm.

I spent 2 hours today going round and round all 13 asteroid belts of a system…with plenty of large mining corp vessels…and never once saw the NPCs attacking the mining fleet, though they did come for me. I made quite a few ISK out of it all…in fact more than from mining…including one piece of loot worth 85m ISK. I demolished about 40 Serpentis craft…not one of which was attacking any mining fleet.

So you don’t know how standings work. Huh. And you expect us to take your opinion seriously? ROFL.

@Cilla_Cybin

If Concord did not exist, gankers would turn up in entirely different ships and fits. So yes…it is entirely about Concord. Well…for anyone not in denial it is.

Not really. The cheapest ship that can do the job is best. You really are not inexperienced with this side of EVE at all huh?

@Torimika

That’s why I asked; I don’t understand why you are discounting the player-player aspect of ganking in identifying it as PvP or not.

We need to immediately clone you. EVE needs about 10,000 more players like you. Thankee.

@Cilla_Cybin

If two people have a classic pistol duel,

Ah. Exposed. Your idea of PvP is very narrow and unrealistic. Got it.

[Ramona_McCandless]

You are arguing with someone who believes the outcome alters the experiment’s purpose.

[Gix_Firebrand]

I know but its just so fun hehe.

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Gix_Firebrand

It is PvP. They fit because they are unique constraints in the security system they are PvPing in.

Don’t be silly. Those are PvE constraints. It is PvE that ultimately takes them out.

Any engagement that directly involves NPCs that one knows are going to show up is ultimately PvE. All the more so when the NPCs are factored into the conflict right from the start ! Gankers know they are going to be taken out by Concord…yet they have the gall and sheer denial to claim that their little venture is entirely PvP.

" They are not fighting CONCORD ROFL. "

Just how in denial can you get ?? Are you a flat earther or something ? That might explain it.

[Cilla_Cybin]

@Alexa_Koschinov

Im pretty sure the robot is relevant. What people here are trying to say is that you seem to identify the robot as the only concern for the duelists, whereas the reality is that in Eve, the other person’s ship and fit is arguably of higher relevance to the fight, since the gankers have to bring as many ships as it would take to kill the other person’s ship or perhaps even more. As such, this tends to give the encounter a pvp aspect which you seem to deny in favour of the pve narrative.

Of course the robot is relevant. All the more so if you know about it in advance and alter your entire weapon and tactics to take that into account. In what conceivable sense is the whole exercise then still a classic duel ??

The point is that the robot isn’t just something that ‘happens’ to show up. It is known about in advance and affects the entire proceedings…not just a clean up at the end.

The very fact, as you say, that ’ the gankers have to bring as many ships as it would take…’ is a direct consequence of Concord and their power and response time. How can NPCs that are factored into the entire operation from the start, and which ultimately are who take out the gankers, leave the whole endeavour still being PvP ??

[Duella_Cre_Vil]

No you cannot argue that a hot air balloon has a sort of motor. Totally different system. It’s basically a huge lighter. I dknt know the exact term, but no XD

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Cilla_Cybin

Don’t be silly. Those are PvE constraints. It is PvE that ultimately takes them out.

Any engagement that directly involves NPCs that one knows are going to show up is ultimately PvE. All the more so when the NPCs are factored into the conflict right from the start ! Gankers know they are going to be taken out by Concord…yet they have the gall and sheer denial to claim that their little venture is entirely PvP.

" They are not fighting CONCORD ROFL. "

Just how in denial can you get ?? Are you a flat earther or something ? That might explain it.

PvE only takes them out because the miners refuse to field sec forces or fight back. CONCORD is the consequence, not the goal.

Its ok bruv. Its all PvP no matter how badly you don’t want it to be