HAC balance, what happened to it?

[JC_Mieyli]

@Old_Pervert

This is about as stimulating as hitting myself in the testicles with a brick

i figured you were into that seems a lot of people are doing that these days

[Rexxar_Santaro]

@Fluffy_Moe

Where is some meaningful noticable HAC rebalance ?

What do you mean?

[Lena_Crews]

@JC_Mieyli

@Lena_Crews

each one getting 15 seconds of near invulnerability along with strong base resists that let them get extra reps before they die, it greatly impacts the war of attrition against non-hac fleets.

lets be fair tho i think a lot of that is due to tidi when 15 seconds really means 4-5 minutes
im not really drawn to that kind of gameplay

@Lena_Crews

Pretty much every alliance seems to use a HAC doctrine when they aren’t wanting to use Caps and don’t want to use Pirate BS (Mach or Nightmare in many cases).

but why dont they want to use pirate ships or t3cs
i get it hacs can do what t3cs do and for cheaper with no sp loss but
is a hac fleet really gonna win against a bs and super fleet
it seems a hac fleet in null is a pretty niche fleet
and i cant imagine a hac fleet taking down a fleet of supers

Not niche at all. And not TIDI at all either… 300 vs 300 aren’t Tidi fights.

What say using Eagles over artillery fit Machs get you is survivability. If 300 of each faced off at range, alpha-striking ship by ship, the eagles would win. it would take 15 seconds to kill each eagle… It would take just a couple of seconds to melt each mach.

where the benefit of pirate BS are is if you have less numbers. You might be able to use half or a quarter of the machs to melt the same target as the eagles… so you can get by with less pilots. If you need more DPS to kill say dreads… you aren’t going to use HACs. But if you have an invading BS fleet… HACS are a great counter (and cheaper than using Machs or Nightmares)

15 seconds of invulnerability is huge in attrition based battles. Not all null combat involves supers.

[Lena_Crews]

@JC_Mieyli

@Old_Pervert

Honestly, given 200+ pilots, I cannot think of a single reason to bring a battleship fleet instead of a HAC fleet.

what about 200 rattlesnakes

yeah… that’s a bad idea. Best case if you out-range them… they can disengage with minimum losses because you’re so slow. they’re fast enough to escape bubbles. Worst case… you lose your entire rattlesnake fleet.

[JC_Mieyli]

@Lena_Crews

What say using Eagles over artillery fit Machs get you is survivability. If 300 of each faced off at range, alpha-striking ship by ship, the eagles would win. it would take 15 seconds to kill each eagle… It would take just a couple of seconds to melt each mach.

so youre saying an eagle can kill an arty mach faster than an arty mach can kill an eagle
tho i dont like art anyway i would always go ac mach personally
because screw arty

@Lena_Crews

If you need more DPS to kill say dreads… you aren’t going to use HACs

so why are you using them in sov warfare
is sov warfare just upgraded gang warfare now
if it is i might come back to null

@Lena_Crews

But if you have an invading BS fleet…

you can assume it will be reinforced with dreads and carriers
unless
nullsec turned into skirmish warfare while i wasnt looking

[Lena_Crews]

@JC_Mieyli

so brings rohks and die in a fire in case they bring cerbs
doesnt sound balanced to me
sounds more like the only counter to cerbs is more cerbs
by the why you describe it
idk i havent engaged in fleet warfare since fountain
i got sick of it back then and decided i would only do small gang stuff
so thats the part of the game that matters to me
i dont really care what people do in sov space

Then why are you arguing it?

Can you just trust others telling you HAC’s fill a role as great anti-subcap large fleet ships? I know it’s not what you do… but that doesn’t mean the ship has no use (or that it’s OP). It just has a role where it had none before.

That was what was needed. There was no real use for AF’s and HAC’s before the ADC. Now both are seeing a good amount of use. That’s good.

[Lena_Crews]

@JC_Mieyli

@Lena_Crews

What say using Eagles over artillery fit Machs get you is survivability. If 300 of each faced off at range, alpha-striking ship by ship, the eagles would win. it would take 15 seconds to kill each eagle… It would take just a couple of seconds to melt each mach.

so youre saying an eagle can kill an arty mach faster than an arty mach can kill an eagle
tho i dont like art anyway i would always go ac mach personally
because screw arty

@Lena_Crews

If you need more DPS to kill say dreads… you aren’t going to use HACs

so why are you using them in sov warfare
is sov warfare just upgraded gang warfare now
if it is i might come back to null

@Lena_Crews

But if you have an invading BS fleet…

you can assume it will be reinforced with dreads and carriers
unless
nullsec turned into skirmish warfare while i wasnt looking

1. No, an eagle solo cannot kill an arty mach solo as fast. But 300 eagles will alpha a mach ever volley, while the 300 mach’s would only kill the eagles once every 15 seconds (given smart use of the ADC). Perhaps a bit better if they’re good at calculating how to split their DPS and calling multiple targets (not the easiest thing in the world).

2. I’m not sure what you think null fleets are about. You have sov fleets, structure fleets and just random fleets to fight others in your space. If people are entosising in capitals (yes, this happens a lot), HAC’s aren’t the go to.
   If they’re in smaller ships supported by something like Ferrox’s… HAC might be the way to go. If they’re in claws… you probably need more mobility than HACS give you. Entosis battles take many different forms and what the opponent is using (and in what numbers) will greatly change what you should fly.

3. It might be. You still might want to engage with HACs, then drop your dreads on their dreads and reship your HAC’s to BS of your own when that happens.

[JC_Mieyli]

@Lena_Crews

No, an eagle solo cannot kill an arty mach solo as fast. But 300 eagles will alpha a mach ever volley, while the 300 mach’s would only kill the eagles once every 15 seconds (given smart use of the ADC).

so you would need the intel to know who theyre gonna primary so they know who is gonna get alphad

@Lena_Crews

reship your HAC’s to BS of your own when that happens

so what you can just reship mid fight
like the whole fleet takes a jump bridge back to station or something
sorry i havent done sov warfare in years so i dont get where the ships are coming from

[Old_Pervert]

@JC_Mieyli

so you would need the intel to know who theyre gonna primary so they know who is gonna get alphad

It’s just like pre-broadcasting for reps, or using your emergency hull energizer on your fax.

When the fleet yellowboxes you, you hit your ADC. The longer you wait, the less chance you have to survive the volley, but the longer you will survive when they do choose to volley you.

@JC_Mieyli

so what you can just reship mid fight
like the whole fleet takes a jump bridge back to station or something
sorry i havent done sov warfare in years so i dont get where the ships are coming from

Very much true if you’re on the defensive side. Less true if yuo’re on offensive side, but we’ve certainly used capitals to ferry subcap reships.

Carriers and supers for example, when they jump in, the subcaps in claws or whatever can reship to battlecruisers, battleships, HACs, or whatever else we want to use to reship to support them.

[JC_Mieyli]

@Old_Pervert

When the fleet yellowboxes you, you hit your ADC

but then everyone would adc at the same time
at what point in a fleet engagement is everyone not yellowboxed
i think you maybe confuse yellowbox with redbox

@Old_Pervert

Carriers and supers for example, when they jump in, the subcaps in claws or whatever can reship to battlecruisers, battleships, HACs, or whatever

i guess thats fine if youre all following the same doctrine
if a little disorganised
how many fitted bses can a super carry anyway

[Remiel_Pollard]

Give the quote close [/quote] it’s own line, or it goes screwy like that.

[JC_Mieyli]

i figured it out ty

[Remiel_Pollard]

Yeah I saw you beat me to it. Just trying to be helpful.

[Nico_Boru]

An old meth head I worked with gave me some great advice; It doesnt matter how poor you are, youre never too poor to pay attention.

That said, this has been a wonderful clinic on HACs.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Tank is a bit weak, but Recons can provide the more effective tackle and other secondary effects while HACs do the punching.

[Dracvlad]

OP and @JC_Mieyli, you should both read what @Old_Pervert posted as he really knows his stuff.

HAC’s look pretty damn good now, the ADC is really useful and the mobility of HAC’s is key. CCP are about to improve the Zealot which I look forward to because that was a ship I enjoyed using, giving it a drone bay is long overdue.

PS Take this from someone who uses HAC’s in nullsec fleets and the Rattlesnake in some major battles including being watrerboarded by Frat. And I have been using my Vaga as a rapid response ship for home defence since I came back to Null.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Dracvlad

And I have been using my Vaga as a rapid response ship for home defence since I came back to Null.

How do fly/fit it?
Seems to me the Vagas speed tank gets wrecked by even a single web, and it cant fit arty to kite.

[Dracvlad]

I have dual prop and XL ASB. Works really well, it has limits as a solo boat, but as part of an ad hoc gang it rocks.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Could you link full fit including implants?

[Dracvlad]

[Vagabond, Vagabond XL Anciallry]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster
50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
10MN Afterburner II
J5b Enduring Warp Scrambler

Small Energy Nosferatu II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II

Hobgoblin II x5

Hail M
Barrage M
Republic Fleet EMP M
Republic Fleet Fusion M
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Nanite Repair Paste x89
Navy Cap Booster 400 x20

You need a CPU EE-603. And full fitting skills,

I debated adjusting to see if I could fit the ADC but it works well as it is, I have four like this and one in my main ratting system has 14 killmarks on it now I think.

You have to know what you can do with it, close in with hail, heavy tackle, NOS to keep tackle under neuts, get in on the MWD switch to AB. If you want to kite then Barrage or Sabot and keep range. The MWD is not cap stable but the AB is, you control range by switching and of course it changes your sig. I tend to avoid Orthrus in it unless in a gang Can be a bit of fun. You melt fast tackle…

PS I would not take on a RS solo with this…