Haulers need more garanty

Scams are part of the game.

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Pardon my limited understanding, Brisc, but isn’t this something they deliberately fixed, then inadvertently broke when they added cores?

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That I do not know.

Who cares, there’s still a warning.

The more scams the better!

It’s really simple: if you don’t trust the destination or the trip towards that destination then simply don’t accept the contract. Why should the game cater, and change, to the uninformed, lazy and greedy nitwits who act before thinking? You accepted the contract because it looked better than all the others, why do you think that was the case!

You saw a profitable opportunity and you didn’t think about issues nor did you put in previous effort into learning about the profession/activity you’re doing. You got in trouble due to your own lack of effort.

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The cargo deposit was intended to solve this very problem.

Reddit, however, tells me that this solution also added the problem that people could store loot in any random structure and use asset safety to ferry it out without exposing themselves to the risk of hauling it out from where they got it, and excused them from having to abide by the limits of their cargo hold.

I think the decision to disable the cargo deposit under certain circumstances was probably deliberate, but either way it’s probably low priority since people are going to complain whether the feature works or does not work.

(The rest of this post is not targeted at Xeux, given that I think they know this stuff already.)

The more complicated a system, the more likely some people will find a way to explo-. Ahem I mean the more likely some people will find a way to selfishly take advantage of loopholes in that system to benefit themselves at the expense of someone else who doesn’t understand all those rules and the risks they’re taking.

Eve is a scammy place. Only a small list of published exploits can result in retribution by out of game means, and CCP did put some big mean nasty red text on the contract page to warn a hauler that there might be a problem. The warning was ignored and the hauler got screwed, but that’s what happens if you ignore warnings or carelessly click around your windows with significant sums of your isk at stake.

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That is certainly true, and they can be one of the most interesting parts of the game. But that doesn’t mean that every scam game mechanic is necessarily optimized.

IMO the way to look at these sorts of complaints is to try to imagine the mechanic, taking away both the thrill of the winner winning and the grief of the loser from losing, and ask yourself if the mechanic itself would be fun and interesting to play from both sides. E.g., is this something somebody would still want to do, just for fun, even if they would neither win nor lose ISK? If not, I think that’s a bad mechanic. If so, I think that’s a good mechanic, regardless of how upsetting it is to the loser.

I’m not sure this mechanic passes that test. Absent the thrill and grief of the winner and loser, it isn’t a mechanic, for either side, that anybody would play.

I’d think this sort of scam mechanic would be a lot more fun and interesting if the scammer has to blow up the hauler, or to pick a system that is for some reason very difficult for the hauler to get through safely. If that would skew things too strongly in favor of the hauler, I’d introduce ways to shift that risk back, like requiring a more precise delivery time window or something.

In the real world contracts depend on a legal and law enforcement system.

Eve needs lawyers.

April Fools!!!

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Tort Law trained to level V?

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To perform this scam at all, someone has to have the isk to put a structure of some kind at risk. Pissing off people by scamming them out of their money is one of the motivators that prompts people to create content by going after the people who scammed them. In this case, there is a path to retribution because whoever created the contract must control a structure and its docking access to make the scam work.

Eve rewards patience and scheming, and it rewards cooperation, assuming you can sort out who’s scheming against you and who isn’t. If you can’t take down the structure today, you can hold a grudge until tomorrow.

The only thing I find particularly unfortunate is the isk cost of the scam putting it out of reach for those of very modest means. This barrier sets the lower bound on how much the scam has to pay off to be worthwhile. This means that people will not be able to fall prey to the scam until they’ve accumulated a significant amount of wealth to lose. If people were doing this earlier in their careers, people would learn about it earlier, and lose less, and be better able to exact revenge on people with similarly shallow pockets.

As safety increases, people lose greater and greater sums of their wealth suddenly. This makes sense because wealth accumulation does nothing to to smarten up a player. The sharks just bide their time until the fish is fat enough to make a decent meal of for the effort it takes to catch it and the fish will lament that someone should have told them there were sharks in the water.

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I don’t really disagree with any of that. I’m making a different point, not one about balance or risk/reward. My point is that the actual mechanic itself should also be fun to play. I think that’s something we lose sight of on here a lot… Carrying out scams should be fun, and avoiding scams should be fun, independent of the risks or rewards of either. It’s a video game, not a job :slight_smile:

Take another example- contract scam spamming in Jita… I don’t care if that is fair or unfair, balanced or unbalanced, is it actually a fun part of the game to play, once you take away the thrill of gaining ISK? If not, we can do better there IMO.

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Anyone saying that this isn’t an exploit; can you give us a real life example to this?

i took your stuff, delivered to your door but your doors are closed.
But i made the delivery, there is just noone at the building to sign papers.
i can simply find some witnesses etc and go to the court.

i can understand if station is destroyed etc.

When the cargo guy can’t find you at home he just returns the cargo back.

i can’t think of any real life examples the deliverer is punished while he made the delivery perfectly and on time.

its an exploit to me.

This is a game.

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Yeah, we are 20000 years in the future, a bunch of immortals that fly spaceships around a cluster of solar systems that don’t actually exist. No wonder you can’t find any real life examples. Nothing real life applies.

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I just expect that real life delivery companies perform risk analysis to ensure they don’t agree to pay a huge penalty for failure to deliver cargo to a location they can’t access.

Nobody is saying that this is a wholesome act, so if that’s all you want to say then folks would probably agree with you. However, patching it out or banning the behavior is controversial (to put it mildly) because “caveat emptor” or “let the buyer beware” is a core aspect of Eve’s flavor. In this case, we have someone who did not read the fine print of their contract and they got burned, and that is what many of us would call the expected outcome.

You don’t like it, and you don’t think it’s fair. I get that, I really do, but Eve hasn’t historically been ‘fair’ in that kind of way. The rules apply equally, and everyone has to play by them. Greater understanding of those rules gives players an advantage over those who are the lesser. Getting scammed is how we learn those rules. After that it is up to us to either take advantage of them, or warn people who are being taken advantage of, according to our wont.

I said it before, but players scamming is what gives the justice seekers the chance to dole out the justice they want to see done. In real life, people can and do commit crimes. They can and do embezzle lots of money. Some get caught, and some get away with it. Most of us never get to be the cop, and almost none of us get to be a vigilante. In game player crime gives in game players the chance to step into these roles. If a player goes unprotected and crime goes unpunished, then the so called white knights need to look at themselves for why that is. They could step up and defend the helpless, or blunt the losses of someone who falls for these scams and teach them to do better, but folk generally don’t care about any losses suffered by other players to lend material support to them. Words only. (There are exceptions, of course. No law stands against the variations in all humanity.)

The presence of an immobile station is a perfect target to exact some payback from by whatever means players want to take. These are, I feel, the sorts of player to player conflicts that are supposed to be driving the virtual world and making it interesting.

The issue I have is that it takes a lot of isk to be able to put yourself at risk of war and few are brave enough to pull these kinds of stunts at all and so people have gotten complacent and feel they need do very little to ensure their own security until learn very suddenly when they become a fat enough target to poach. It probably happens to all of us, myself included, but when it happened to me I was still new and flying destroyers because shenanigans of this sort were cheap. All the increased safety does, even if you get it, is cost ‘new’ players more money when they finally do get rolled because they’re still unprepared for it.

Every capsuleer has to take responsibility for their career, and their destiny in New Eden. To treat your actions as if they carry any less weight than that is to invite disaster. Ignoring (or not reading) the red text warning in this case was careless.

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Real life had Trojan horses and mail bombs.

Keep up EVE!

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You live in outer space, the final frontier, a vast dark void stretching to eternity. One day, a man offers to pay you, to haul a mysterious package across the universe. He agrees to pay, but insists that you sign a contract that states you will only get paid upon delivery of the item. He refuses to tell you who he is, and you know he isn’t being honest, because a basic background check shows he is a non-person associated with the death cult terrorist organization that has been hunting and murdering people like you for twenty eons. However, you are an absolute idiot, and you sign the contract. You agree, voluntarily, depositing collateral with an ‘independent’ third party organization which clearly profits from your death and destruction. Later, you realize that the ‘valuable’ item you are delivering is just an empty cardboard box. Subsequently, en route to the station, you are ambushed and murdered. Or perhaps you make it to the station, but SURPRISE, the station is on RED ALERT and it’s a trap! Wow. You really didn’t see that coming?

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can’t wait for the sequel :popcorn:

It is actually kind of funny. It used to be, a few decades ago (IRL) that when you bought something, you were expected to take responsibility for owning and using the thing. Then, a bunch of lawyers started suing everybody. Now when I buy a screwdriver, it comes with a 12 page manual, translated into twenty languages, that is nothing but warnings about dumb stuff you shouldn’t do.

Now, apparently, we have gotten to the point where even a warning printed all in red isn’t considered good enough.

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