High sec needs more war decs

[Foggy_Bernstein]

The last time that happened, there were so many one man corps that the server turned to molasses.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

Here’s the thing, Roan.

There are literally hundreds of valid professions in this sandbox. But all you can do is work yourself into a lather because the entire game doesn’t revolve around the one you chose as a career.

That’s why you and people like you get your ass rode so hard in here.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Foggy_Bernstein

There are literally hundreds of valid professions in this sandbox.

Pretty much this.

In fact, I’d say that the only profession that doesn’t exist in EVE is providing security, because the players that need security never seem to be willing to pay for that work to get done.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

@Destiny_Corrupted

I’d say that the only profession that doesn’t exist in EVE is providing security

Yeah. Mostly because you can’t provide security. At least in high sec. All an escort can do - with some exceptions - is react to an attack, not remove the threat. Which is fine if you are in a ship that will survive the alpha strike. But you might as well just wait for Concord for all the mechanic will allow protectors to actually protect you.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

I agree with regard to ganking; security is limited to proactive hauler webbing, or maybe counter-shooting the wreck to ensure that gankers don’t get any loot.

But as far as wars are concerned, security is quite possible. For example, a mining corporation at war can hire fighters to protect them during an op. Paying half of the take but still being able to spend an evening mining with all of your friends still beats telling everyone to log off to play DotA, no?

A long, long time ago, we had Blackbirds and Falcons on standby during corp/alliance PvE ops. I started getting heavily into the mercenary business around 2008, and for a few years, there was lots of stable work. Then it started drying up; people were less and less willing to pay for protectors (or just someone to bash someone else’s face in), and what I was told very often was that they were surprised that I wanted to charge money, and that they expected to get it for free because I’m a PvPer, and enjoy PvP, so why would they pay me to do something I liked doing? It seems like a big generational shift happened.

These days, the only “work” still available is structure/POCO bashing and defense.

People aren’t willing to give up a shred of their profits for something they feel shouldn’t be a part of the game anyway, even though high-sec PvE is paying out more than ever.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

I agree for the most part. Maybe I’ll expand on this a little later. But right now I’m trying to buy all the minerals around Amarr before panic buying jumps the price.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

Good luck. Unfortunately, I don’t have anywhere near a reasonable amount of liquid assets to capitalize on this event.

[Haulie_Berry]

@Foggy_Bernstein

But right now I’m trying to buy all the minerals around Amarr before panic buying jumps the price.

Domain outmined The Forge on every (released) economic report this year except June, and has a fraction of the domestic mineral consumption.

That’s like… panic buying soybeans because they can’t be sold to china.

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Cade_Windstalker

Eve Uni

Eve Uni is a well known scam.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

It’s prime territory for mining (and PvE in general). However, if miners can’t easily get their minerals to Jita to be consumed, they will relocate to another connected area that’s closer. And so, prices in Amarr space will ultimately go up, but it’s a long-term play.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

I’m sure whatever it is you are trying to say makes perfect sense, but all I care about is getting three or four freighters in production. That requires a fair amount of minerals and I ain’t sittin’ on my ass for a week thinking the price will go down and not up.

[Cade_Windstalker]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Some players are beyond saving. Expending energy to bring them up to the same level as the average is a very wasteful effort (and ultimately futile, since they’ll fail the second they’re let loose).

Sure, but your measure of what makes what I’ll call an “acceptable player” is way off. Again, I spent years in Eve Uni, and the idea that you can bring the average new player up to a state where they’ll be comfortable in a war dec in a few hours is laughable. Especially if that player is coming in saying “I want to do mining/industry/hauling/exploring/ect” and not “I want to blow stuff up!” On-boarding those guys is easy, you tell them to fly to Aldrat in whatever they have handy before actually joining the corp and start handing them free T1 frigates.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Just because there are “instructors,” doesn’t mean that they themselves are perfectly skilled. On the whole, is the organization doing well? Sure, but there are still plenty of oversights, and opportunities to improve.

Sure, but I don’t think a “lack of compartmentalization” is one of those deficiencies.

Two things I’d like to stress to you here. One, I’m using Eve Uni as of the time of the previous major war-dec changes, around 2013 or 2014 (can’t remember which) as an example for this thread. Two, I’m not currently involved with Eve Uni and can’t comment on how things are currently run or their current policies beyond what’s listed on the Uni Wiki, except to say that I have great faith in them based on what I’ve seen, experienced, and heard since I left.

@Destiny_Corrupted

I routinely teach (more so in the past, when I was more active) new players how to PvP. And I don’t mean like “okay get the Rifter, we’re going on a roam and you’re going to learn how to tackle!” I actually teach players how to win , right off the bat, which involves explaining focused aggression, psychology, and generally turning a player not into someone who can fly in a nice little gang and fulfill a role, but someone who targets the enemy’s insecurities, and is able to absolutely terrify them; that is to say, not just a soldier, but a killer .

Which is, I assure you, extremely different than what I’m talking about. That works for a small minority of players, and most of the ones you get are likely not as new as the ones showing up in Eve Uni as newbies. Almost certainly a lot less diverse too.

If the game was populated entirely by the people you teach then I’d defer to your experience, but it’s not, and I’m fairly confident mine is both broader and more applicable in this instance.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Teaching someone how to “know” is not the same thing as teaching someone how to “win.”

Yes, but you need to know before you win, and you can’t make a brand new player who still things a 1600 Plate and a Shield Booster is a good fit for a Drake into a PvP murder-hobo without teaching them the basics and getting them comfortable in their ship first.

If you’d like to teach a high level PvP course then I’m sure Eve Uni would be happy to have you do so, as far as I know they still accept guest instructors.

You won’t be handed a class full of newbs though, you’ll get people who already know what their F1 button is for, among other things.

@Destiny_Corrupted

I teach them how to control their heart rate in a fight.

Yup, good advice. Again, if you’d like to teach a high level course on this at Eve Uni check out this page: Teaching Classes at EVE University - EVE University Wiki

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This has wandered a bit off topic though. My key point here is that creating a situation where any corp can be war dec’d, even if they’re basically just a social group with no assets and no ability to defend themselves, is going to drive some people out of the game even if they could eventually grow up to be productive members of the community and “content” for everyone. I say this both based on what CCP has said in the past (that social interaction drives long term retention) and my time in Eve Uni teaching all sorts of new players with all sorts of experience levels and backgrounds.

[Cade_Windstalker]

@Destiny_Corrupted

People aren’t willing to give up a shred of their profits for something they feel shouldn’t be a part of the game anyway, even though high-sec PvE is paying out more than ever.

I think part of it is that around 2011/2012 is when large Null blocks started valuing miners and industrialists more, so a lot of the big successful ones started getting recruited, where they could not only get protection but ship replacement and richer returns.

Not to mention some amount of appreciation from at least part of the community, where as back then the general feeling on the forums and elsewhere was generally fairly insulting towards miners.

Anyways, that’s purely speculation on my part. There may also have been shifts in tactics, among other things.

Personally though I don’t think I’d pay for mining protection if I was running a mining op back then. My guess is that it would be both cheaper and more effective to either bounce everyone to a new corp or simply take more precautions in picking a mining site, and if you lose ships then oh well, if you did a good job you can replace them for what would have been the cost of hiring mercs.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Cade_Windstalker

Again, I spent years in Eve Uni, and the idea that you can bring the average new player up to a state where they’ll be comfortable in a war dec in a few hours is laughable.

It really isn’t. You just have to know the right things to say.

And be willing to accept that every once in a while, someone might quit on the spot because they realize that this is the worst possible game for them.

@Cade_Windstalker

Yes, but you need to know before you win, and you can’t make a brand new player who still things a 1600 Plate and a Shield Booster is a good fit for a Drake into a PvP murder-hobo without teaching them the basics and getting them comfortable in their ship first.

Training someone to fight isn’t the same as training someone to bake a loaf of bread. Training someone to fight means you have to break down their thought process completely, and then restructure it. One of the very first things you tell someone is that everything they know at that moment is wrong. From that moment on, until they’re ready, they have to ask questions about everything. You can get someone ready for combat in just a few minutes this way.

@Cade_Windstalker

This has wandered a bit off topic though. My key point here is that creating a situation where any corp can be war dec’d, even if they’re basically just a social group with no assets and no ability to defend themselves, is going to drive some people out of the game even if they could eventually grow up to be productive members of the community and “content” for everyone.

And that’s fine. EVE is not for everyone. Most will stay, and that’s good enough.

@Cade_Windstalker

Personally though I don’t think I’d pay for mining protection if I was running a mining op back then. My guess is that it would be both cheaper and more effective to either bounce everyone to a new corp or simply take more precautions in picking a mining site, and if you lose ships then oh well, if you did a good job you can replace them for what would have been the cost of hiring mercs.

Addressing a problem by finding a loophole in game mechanics you can exploit might be a legit/allowed method of dealing with it, but it’s not the same thing as finding an in-game solution. Yes, you can “roll” the corporation, and possibly get away with it forever because CCP chooses not to address it like they did for, say, boomeranging during ganks. You just got lucky that there’s a button that you can press to make the problem go away that doesn’t require you to actually think and play.

Does it work? Yeah, it sure does. But it’s effectively just a different version of the “problem of the commons,” and is actually quite bad for the game and its players. Your stance is exactly the thing that devalued and almost destroyed the mercenary business in its entirety.

Imagine an EVE in which ejecting from your ship drops your criminal timer and CONCORD aggro. Sounds pretty shitty for all the carebears, right? Well, rolling your corporation is very similar to that.

[Syn_Shi]

Declare war on the TTT. You will get plenty of fights.

My bad, none of you actually want a fight.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

It wouldn’t be much of a fight unless you can get hundreds, of not thousands, of people to join you. Undocking and setting the self-destruct timer would accomplish the same thing, minus the war fee.

Tired old carebear argument that completely ignores reality.

[Syn_Shi]

So the war-decking contingent doesn’t want to rally together and form up to take on a more organized and possibly more skilled group of players.

But then they expect miners and small corps to do it.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

Your example doesn’t even make sense. On one hand, we have a PvP group declaring war on a PvE group, in order to make some sort of profit. On the other, we have a PvP group declaring war on a much larger PvP group, for…what? What’s the payoff, exactly? A few months’ worth of citadel fuel?

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Syn_Shi

So the war-decking contingent doesn’t want to rally together and form up to take on a more organized and possibly more skilled group of players.

But then they expect miners and small corps to do it.

That did happen in 2012.

Null blocs decced high-sec players and wardec corps piled in on the defending side such that goons asked for the ally system to be changed.

But the other thing is that before the whole ‘nerf the ■■■■ out of my wardecs’ attitude, wardeccing corps were often smaller than their targets, and even more so than their combined targets.

It wouldn’t have been quite so unreasonable for the miners to form up and defend themselves because if they did, they’d likely have an overwhelming force.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Daichi_Yamato

Null blocs decced high-sec players and wardec corps piled in on the defending side such that goons asked for the ally system to be changed.

All of these derpos keep prattling on and on about “real PvP,” when in reality, the average pirate is much more skilled than the average null-sec lemming.

I would rather have a single high-sec wardec hardman on my side than ten null-sec F1 monkeys, any day of the week.