How Tier 1 Battleships could be fixed

Sound odd, i’ve never had much issues with T1 Battleships except at low level or incorrectly fitting them.

Normally a tracking computer is required to counter poor tracking or range issues. And correctly setting tank for the ship helps.

Other factors are what are you facing and at what range, this governs what midslot modules need to be installed. Remember installing a 4th damage mod should questioned? Does that extra few % better used on CAP, Tank Resistance, Rep or other bonuses. Remember you’re only gaining under 40% of the damage mods bonus.

Recommend do your fit with one of each module to get your basic fit design, and then add modules to fill you fit out and play till it meets your requirements.

If you think T1 Battleships are fine in null sec sov wars, you’re out of your mind.
@DragoFire



There is no reason to use a BB fleet (or BB support wing) over a HAC fleet.

My EWAR proposal only makes it so a handful of BB’s could be used for support, it still wouldn’t make a fleet of them preferred over HACs.

In that regard BB’s need help in scan res and cap, and I may suggest, tactical modes.

only reason T1 Battleships would be used in NullSec SOV Wars are as meat shields/Cheap expendable targets while proper Faction/T2 Battleship engage.

though T1 Battleships with proper fits work well in FactionWars and the like, but NullSec SOC Wars are a different breed of beast.

Please read the linked threads so you can make an informed contribution.

My proposal keeps BB’s weak against cap (as they should be), but gives them the ability to suppress HACS (without HAC mobility and ADCU). It also doens’t make HACs useless, just makes them more of a hit and run (warp off between ADCU cycles). The BB’s would still have to be weary of HAC’s at all times, but they could reliably keep pushing them off field. They also wouldn’t be able to chase the HACs.

why would I read Reddit topics?

non-official, if its related to EVE Online it should be on the offical forums, if not then there’s an issue with the topic so it has to be hidden on Reddit.

sorry, it’s like someone saying go read Reddit topic on Star Citizen it’s more detailed!!!

EvE reddit section is as pertinent to EvE as the official forums. Been that way since the game’s inception.

Most balance proposals (and eventual implementations) originate from reddit. The CCP devs are also well in touch with the EvE reddit.

EvE reddit is also more active (user input) in the balance field than the official forums.

The wide plethora of user comments of balance, counter balance and theory crafting (and theory killing) on Battleships (in 2020) in those linked threads would enlighten you to the current nullsec status of BB’s.

half of what is posted there is 7months old.

T1 and Faction Battleships just last week got an 10% HP bonus to all three pools, plus a Scan Rez increase.
(amended % vaule)
a few months ago BS’s got a warp bonus.

half of what you have quote on Reddit is out of date and not even current.

comparing HAC to T1 BS’s on a one to one is just stupid to start with, in Nullsec Battleships flying solo are just asking to be killed by HAC’s.

HAC’s against a Fleet of Battleships will die as soon as their ADC’s finish and they have to wait for the time to finish before they can restart the ADC’s. A good FC will know this and make the HAC’s work to get the few kills they might get before their ADC deactivate, then do focus fire on the HAC’s and melt them off the field.

Hate to say it nothing new in the Reddit links you posted…

So what if half the proposals are 7 months old. They still apply. And those buffs were not exactly sufficient so far.
Btw these are the changes:

" * All Tech I Battleships - which includes faction hulls - receive 10% increase to base hp and 30% increase to scan resolution"

The 10% (not 20% as you posted) is countered by the overall nerf to resistance modules. Also proposal doens’t include a base scan res increase. Just a module that increases scan res and EWAR defense for 5-10 seconds. Choosing the scan res bonus instead of the defense/offense/prop bonus would prevent the BB from using those other options for 45-60 seconds.

Btw, it’s because of REDDIT that we got the base scan res bonus. So much for your reddit hate.

Btw, over the long duration of a fight, 10% HP increase is silly compared to resist mod nerf for subcap logi application. The resist mod nerfs should only have been targeted at Caps.

and point is?

the resistance adjustment has made little effect on most BS, only those with already Max value modules have taken a hit.

most have change tank fits and already doing what they were doing before with very little change.

and I see no comment about the HAC vs BS one on one comment! is it the fact that this is true, that idiots solo flying BS’s in nullsec have issues with HAC’s?

do these same players have issues with T3 TC’s also? be surprised if they didn’t!

look in Nullsec BS’s shouldn’t be flying solo anyhow, most players know this, if you fly solo you fly a cloaked ship or cloak-fitted ship, you watch DScan and in Nullsec you have local as an added bonus.

and if HAC’s are an issue fit to counter them, there’s heaps of ways to screw over HAC’s, and the ADC has a very limited amount of resistance bonus time, after that its a long wait before it’s available again.

very little else to say, other than know your ships, know your enemies, and learn to use your bonuses and their weakness.

there is never a magic fit, as there is always someone out there with a better one.

I couldnt’ care less about “idiots flying solo BS.” This thread has never mentioned them.

You’re adding a giant strawman. Because you’re losing the argument. Also the “magic fit” is another strawman you put up.

And the resistance changes do affect BB subcaps more than any other subcap, because the logi reps they receive over time are equally nerffed. If anything BB’s are now even WEAKER vs caps.

Your argument about ADCU’s were already mentioned (in agreement) by me earlier. Please learn to read.

And if you don’t see HAC vs BB arguments in the three reddit links, you need reading comprehension lessons as well.

@Stitch_Kaneland

I think (with my proposal) with your proposal in mind (I read yours a couple of years ago and it stayed in mind) would be:

Mega: Line Ship (no ewar bonus)
Hyp: Scram Bonus
Domi: Damp Bonus

Even though my OP gives the Mega the Damp Bonus. If the mega got the Damp bonus it would need a serious reduction of firepower as a consequence. In this setting we make the Domi the Line Ship.

However you’re original suggestion also works:

Hyp: Damp Bonus (to force other BB’s into close range)
Mega: Line Ship
Domi: Scram bonus.

I’d like to hear your input overall though. I also agree that Gallente is the most difficult race to balance. Being forced to engage a Hyp in grapple range is nutzo! lol. That’s why I prefer the Damps on the Mega.

yes 100 battleship fleet damp down 100 hac fleet now comes the part where you tell us how any fc is going to assign a unique target to each of his 100 fleet members in a matter of seconds …

This is a great set of proposals. So for Minnie we’d have Mael with web bonus, Phoon with TP bonus, Tempest as line ship (more damage or application) and all would get extra mid and cap?

Higher tier mission and anomaly rats would need a buff as PVE would be affected quite a lot though

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If PvE had to be adjusted vs BB application/tank, that would be fine.

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Having to do something other than command 99 other bots to press F1 would be healthy for this game.

LOL

I jsut reread what you said.

Your fleet member random choose 2 targets each in 100v100 and puts 2 damps on them.

Law of Probability gives a 95% chance that no less than 90 hostile ships would have 2 damps on them.

Law of Probability gives 74% chance that no less than 68% hostile ships would have 4 damps on them.

You use the nCr combinatoric probability distribution.

If each Megathron random chooses 4 ships and puts one damp on them, you now have a 99.95% chance that at least each hostile ship has at least one damp on them.

87% chance that any hostile has two damps.

21% chance any hostile has three damps

2% chance any hostile get hit with 4.

1% for 5

sub 1% (cumulative) to get hit with 6 to 100 damps.


Thus the Fleet commander chooses if he wants more random breadth (each mega chooses 4 different ships) or more random focus (each mega chooses 2 different ships).

Higher breadth increases the total amount of hostiles damped (at least one damp); higher focus increases the amount of individual hostiles with at least two damps, but leaves more hostiles possibly untouched.

Higher breadth is to force range (reliable), higher focus is to stop damage (reliable).


You can use the below diagram for a quick estimation of random choice, although it’s not as accurate.


Let us now show how the real formula would work:

Let G = number of allied megas
Let E = number of hostile Muninns.

Let a = number of damps on Mega
Let b = number of damps used on each target.
Let n = number of targets randomly chosen by a single mega, such that:

n = a/b, where n is a whole number.

For the mega we have 4 mid slots, one is reserved for Prop mod.
We can fit 3 damps to a mega, so:
a = 3
Since n must be a whole number, b cannot be equal to 2, therefore:

b = 1 or 3, therefore
n = 3 or 1.

We will assume the case of b = 3, such that each Mega chooses only one target and puts all 3 damps on them, therefore n = 1, this is the FOCUS model.

Now say we have 100 Megas and 100 Munnins, then:

G = 100
E = 100, set E = {e1, e2, e3…e100}
n = 1

The first Mega chooses his target, {e1}

The second Mega chooses his target, with (E - 1)/probability of NOT choosing {e1}. This would be a (99/100) probability. Call this target {e2}.

Before we move on, you must understand the following combination chart for the binomial coefficient:

.

The amount of distinct pair combinations that the first two Mega pilots can choose is given by the formula nCr; or 2 C 100 = 4950, let 4950 = Y

The amount of same choice combinations is simply 100, where the first and second pilot chose the same target. Let 100 = Z.

let X = (Y + Z) = 5050. The chance that both pilots choose different targets is TRULY (Y/X) = 98.02%, the TRUE chance they both chose the same target is the compliment (Z/X) = 01.98%

Now let us proceed to the Third Mega pilot, he chooses enemy {e3}. The number of distinct combination that {e3} is not {e1} or {e2} is given by the formula 100 C 3 = 161700, let this be equal to T.

T = 161700

Since 100 C 2 = 4950 distinct {e1, e2} pairs, and there are 100 same choice {e1,e2} pairs (Y and Z).

There are still 100 same choice pairs where {e1} = {e2} = {e3}.
There are 161700 triplets where {e1} ~= {e2} ~= {e3}.

We know need to know the chance of {e1} = {e2} but ~= {e3}.
We set {e1} = {e2} = {h}. Then for each {h} there are 99 choices of {e3}. The number of choices for {h} is 100. Therefore there are 99(100) combination for this scenario, which is 9900 choices.

We repeat this again for the case of: {e1} = {e3} but ~= {e2}.
and we repeat again for the case of: {e2} = {e3} but ~= {e1}.

Both of the above yield 9900 separate combinations. Let 9900 = Y

Now we can proceed to obtain the true probability the Mega Pilot 3 chooses a third distinct enemy.

Let X = (T+Z+3(Y)) = (161700 + 100 + 3(9900)) = 191,500.

Then there is a (T/X) chance, 84%, that the third mega pilot does not choose a Muninn to damp that was not already damped.


As we proceed up the chain from the third mega pilot to the last Mega pilot, it becomes far easier to count the probability that any particular subset of Muninns is NOT damped.

All that awesome math and you forget that most players will just select the first two in the overview.

Nope. You tell them to sort by name and random choose from the middle. People who play this game aren’t dumb. You must really think poorly of us.

Using three damps, I’d tell my fleet to choose one person near the top, one near the mid and one near the bottom.

You’d get this approximate distribution (per one-third block of the name list).

The true damp distribution would appear as (overview sorted by name):

Very true, but still… you cant get them to press f1 all at the same time, or shoot the broadcast… I could go on and on but I have yard work to do. I stand by my statement, most will just pick the first two.

I very much doubt a fleet of veteran players would lazily choose the top. They would follow the instructions.

In the above image of the triple spread, the enemy players at the top and bottom are the safest from being damped (irony!)

Btw, the general faults of [veteran] players is evenly distributed amongst both the allied and enemy fleet.

I know that if I was FC’ing a fleet of 100 munnins, and 68% of them were doubled damped and 27% of them were single damped, I’d be very mad.

Same idea applies to tier 1 Arbitrators fit with 3 TD’s and an Afterburner. The probability model predicts that the Arbs would trade ISK positive (the muninns would still win, but roughly 40% of the Muninns would be destroyed in an engagement of 100 Arbs vs 100 Muninns).

Assume that rigged Arb with with T2 drones/mods cost 20mil. Then 100 Arbs cost 2 billion.

40 proper fleet Munnins cost 12 billion. In our horde number crunching, the Scimis and Basis are also destroyed. We’ll just say 3 billion to be safe.

We’re trading 2 billion in Arbs and sub 100 million in tier 1 exequeros for 15 billion by using a random TD spread that utilizes the “pick 1 from top, one from mid, one from bottom” high breadth model.

Using this T2 Arb fit, we know that statistically 68% of the Muninns will have the following damage profile against the T2 Arbs slow burning at a 45 degree angle to the Muninn ball (the graphs assume that both the T2 Arbs and Muninns have the best INFO, SKIRM, ARMOR links for damage projection from Muninn against Arb):

68% of the Munnins will have this profile:

27% will have this profile:

4%

and around 1% of the Muninns would be unaffected.

Of the 362 dps a Munnin puts out, we have, under ideal circumstances, 100 Muninnis doing 36,200 dps.

However, according to the probability model:

68 are doing 115 dps @ 17km
27 are doing 175 dps @ 25km
4 are doing 260 dps @ 20km
1 is doing full dps, 360 dps.

We assume the Muninn ball comes in close at 20km with t2 short ammo.

Then:

68(115dps) + 27(175) + 4(260) + 360 = 7820 +4725 +1040 + 360 = 13,945 dps.

14000dps/36000dps = 38%. Therefore the sustained Muninn dps has been reduced by 62% (this includes their drones).

The drones of the Muninn’s do 100 dps each, then 100 Muninns project 10,000 dps with their drones. Our t1 logi can hold 10,000 drone dps on these brick fit arbs.

Thus the combined Arty dps of the Muninns is 14000-10,000 = 4000 dps.

Thus the Muninn’s most come in close at 20km to project a combined total of 4k dps from their guns.

That’s when our Brutix/dictor/dragoon wing booshes on top of them and proceeds to drink Muninn tears.

Continuing: The Alpha strike of a Muninn with Quake is 3166.

We now use the 3 graphs to calculate the expected Alpha Strike of 100 Muninns (no drones, therefore we subtract 100 dps from each Mun). Dps is increased from 360 to 400 for Quake (titanium sabot was initially assumed on their approach).

68 are doing 20 dps @ 17km
27 are doing 80 dps @ 25km
4 are doing 190 dps @ 20km
1 is doing full dps, 400 dps.

68 get 5% of the alpha strike.
27 get 20% of the alpha
4 get 47% off their alpha.
1 get 100% of its alpha.

3166x0.05 = 158.3; 158x68 =10744
3166x0.20 = 633; 633x27 = 17091
3166x.47 = 1488; 1488x4 = 5952
3166x1.0 = 3166; 3166x1 = 3166

Combined Alpha Strike is 36,953 on an Arb slow burning 45 degrees to the Muninn.

However, once the Muninns close in, the FC will steer the fleet perpendicular to the Muninns 20km away and further reduce damage taken by over 80%.

Alpha strikes would then fall from 37k to 7.5k on average. The T2 arb has 42k ehp and would mostly find himself suffering from the 10k drone dps, rather than the arty.

Also remember that this is the BEST CASE scenario for the Muninn fleet with full links.

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