How Tier 1 Battleships could be fixed

Before we start, please read these threads before posting, so you can make an informed contribution to the thread:



Finally, before I begin the actual thread: I believe the frigate bay is a considerable buff, especially for an ewar or brawl focused Battleship. Also a brick tanked frigate (vengeance for instance) could permit pilot to use their battleship with combat implants. My vengeance has easily survived multiple bombs.

If I was in a neutageddon, being able to rejoin the fight in a sentinel would be ideal (or a kitsune from a scorpion). With a nice dual prop fit, the enemy would have to find a different method to kill you. Popping out in a Keres or Hyena would be nice too. The BB frigate bay is a buff to EWAR frigs OR combat implants in a brick frig; likewise, it’s therefore a BUFF to BB’s.

First Fix:
Give some tier 1 battleships their respective faction EWAR bonuses.

Disclaimer: This is not specifically about Muninn’s and Megathrons, the follow paragraphs are just a specific example of giving a battleship its faction EWAR bonus and how the idea of this thread occurred to me. This thread does, however, concern the balance between HACS and BB’s in general.

My friend and I were trying to develop a tier 1 cruiser fleet that could trade ISK positive with Muninns.

We decided upon Arbitrators and Celestis in a 7:3 ratio, with a secondary smaller fleet of 20 brutixs + boosher and 20 dragoons + boosher.

The idea was to use Arbitrator tracking disruptors and Celest Sensor damps. The effective dps (tracking speed script) of arty fit Muninns is virtually reduced to 0 while their targeting range is brought under 15km.

Of course, we still need real DPS to get those ADCUs going, so we needed a secondary fleet of blaster brutixes to actually do the killing and a whelp alpha fleet of dragoons to neut the logi.

Then I started to think:

WHY DONT SOME T1 BATTLESHIPS HAVE THEIR FACTION EWAR BONUSES BY DEFAULT.

Battleships are already:
1: Slow (both on field and in warp)
2: Large Sig (take full damage)
3: Vulnerable to Caps (in the age of caps).

Why would I bring 70 Rail Megathrons to fight 70 Muninns?

They have the same dps (although the advantage of range). They have twice the EHP, but that’s not including the ADCU of the muninn.

They are vulnerable to dread drops (unlike Muninns).

But now, let’s see what happens when we give Megas a bonus to sensor damps (in this case we’ll fit two target range scripts and use the celestis as the model for the bonus).

The Muninn’s are reduced to sub 20km targeting range . And the Megas can switch to Faction Antimatter. Enemy logi would also have to come in close.


Although it would still be painful to use Battleships offensively (especially without blue Ani gates in the region), they could still be a powerful defensive asset if they had their EWAR bonuses.

The T1 battleships that do have bonuses are:

Arm (neut bonus, it’s a fine ship).
Scorp (ECM bonus, good ship)

The T1 battleships that SHOULD have a bonus.
Abaddon with Tracking disruptor bonus
Megathron with a Sensor Damp Bonus.
The Hyperion with a scram range bonus.
The Maelstrom with a web range bonus (would not apply to grapple).
The Typhoon with a TP bonus.

Back to my personal example vs Muninns.
*Having Abaddons in place of Arbitrators (in my personal example) would be preferable for the mainline. Having some Megathrons would also be welcome in place of the celestis. These ships could at least take a few direct vollies from the EWAR crippled Muninns before logi landed. With EWAR and range control, the battleships could switch to AB’s to reduce their sig, making the tracking disruptors very good vs the muninns.

*Oh they could also win the fight and not require a brutix boosh fleet to do the real dps. *

The Arbitrator/Celestis +Brutix/Dragoon fleet WILL WIPE (although ISK positive) and would overall be bad for fleet morale. Most players don’t understand that a massive ISK positive trade (arbs and celestis for Muninns) is a win, even if you wipe!

Second Fix:
A separate thing I’ve also considered for battleships would be a module (with a script) that they can use once every 60 seconds with a small 5 second duration that mimics the modes of tactical destroyers but on a 5 second timer like an shortened ADCU.
Propulsion script:+33% speed and 33% agility for 5 seconds,
Defensive Script:+25% resists and -50% sig for 5 seconds,
Offensive: +10% tracking, -10% target res and +10% RoF.
Electronic : +100% scan res and +50% EWAR resistance for 5 seconds.

The battleships without an EWAR bonus would get a bonus extending the duration of the module from 5 to 10 seconds and a reactivation delay down from 60 to 45 seconds. These ships would be:
Apoc
Rokh
Domi
Tempest

The combination of these fixes keeps the Battleship a slow and COMMITTAL weapon (unlike HACS), but gives them more presence on grid. They would still require destroyers to defend against bombs.

THIRD FIX:
Also so long as MJD exists, it must exist on a hull, so +1 mid slot for all BB’s (and +1 low slot for the scorpion, since it already has 8 mid).

The HAC still retains their ADCU, mobility and disengage benefits (and strength vs caps), but the Battleship is now a platform that can offensively (committal) threaten HACS.

This would also increase escalation from HACS --> BB’s --> caps. More things would blow up.

The longer ADCU reactivation timer would also be a soft counter to the HACS own mobility, where the Battleships could use their shorter (and weaker) defensive script every 45-60 seconds.

The only tier 1 battleship left out in this proposal is the Raven. It certainly cannot be an ECM platform and the Rokh already has the combat bonus. Perhaps both the Typhoon and Raven could be missile BB’s with the combat bonus (FIX 2 proposal), with the tempest being armor focused and the Raven being shield focused, yet giving the Typhoon a target painter bonus over the Raven also seems unfair. I would suggest to give them both a TP bonus. TP’s have stacking penalties anyway.

And the Apoc?

Besides: How do you want to fit that TD to the Abaddon? It needs an MWD and/or MJD, it needs at least 1 cap booster, it needs at least a web and long point/scram if you go solo or Tracking Computer and Sensor Booster if you are in a fleet fitting. Without another mid slot, this bonus addition for this particular ship is as useless as the additional damage bonus it received a few months back. The Abaddon needs more cap, not more DPS or TD bonus.

2 Likes

All battleships need help in Scan Res and most need help in cap. They also need some help in general application. Also some damagge application. They are also vulnerable to bombs and caps.

These things are already well known. Caps punch down and HACs/bombers punch up.

But as to why the Abaddon could benefit from a TD bonus.

Using my personal example
I’d fit three TD’s and a prop mod so I could cancel out three Munnins with a reliable . No MJD. I’d keep a boosher near my abaddons.

Now I only need 1 pilot per ship to cancel three munnins, instead of 1 pilot per ship to cancel 2 munnins. Likewise I could get the same benefit from megathrons.

My Abaddons would now function as a heavy support wing (20 abaddons and 10 megas instead of 70 Arbs and 30 Celestis,this gives me 70 pilots that I could put in swift low sig brawl fit cruisers that could engage those muninns under the battlehip EWAR shield).

The Abaddons and Megathrons could also apply considerable dps. Anchor the 20 Abs on a boosher and anchor the Megas nearby on another boosher. No MJD needed.

The trade off for saving 70 pilots of course is the cost and vulnerability of the battleship hull (to caps). Also they are slower. But is it worth saving 70 pilots? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Like in EvE, all things are situational.

As it stands, we do not have a TD or Damp Tier 1 Battleship Platform.

Current options are:

Tier 1:
Crucifier/Maulus
Arbitrator/Celest

Tier 2:
Sentinel/Keres
Curse/Lach
Pilgrim/Arazu

Where’s my battleship option? Btw I’d never field a tier 2 ship in a fleet fight for the sake of tracking disruption, so really the choices are the tier 1 frig/cruiser hulls. A wing of 20 curses cost too much and it’s unlikely you’d have 20 pilots that could fly them.

Although it looks promising to cancel 5 muninns with 1 Curse, the investment is not worth it (post insurance), not to mention they’d have to burn too close in a straight line to use their neuts on the logi. And they only bring 200 dps with their drones. They could in theory be brick fit with guns/missiles and skip the neuts, and rely on boosh support, and give the same dps as a T2 fit Arbitrator.

But why? Why not just give a sturdy (and insurable) tier 1 battleship? They would NOT be as swift in warp/travel as cruiser hulls, but they’d be far more reliable and unlikely to get vollied in a single F1 push from the muninns (fit with correct hardeners).


As for the Apoc…make it the Premiere Line Ship of the Amarr. Give it modes similar to the Tac destroyers, with with a timer duration, activated via a module. No Ewar bonuses, just straight up fighting. Same for the other racial tier 1 BB’s that weren’t mentioned.

Sound odd, i’ve never had much issues with T1 Battleships except at low level or incorrectly fitting them.

Normally a tracking computer is required to counter poor tracking or range issues. And correctly setting tank for the ship helps.

Other factors are what are you facing and at what range, this governs what midslot modules need to be installed. Remember installing a 4th damage mod should questioned? Does that extra few % better used on CAP, Tank Resistance, Rep or other bonuses. Remember you’re only gaining under 40% of the damage mods bonus.

Recommend do your fit with one of each module to get your basic fit design, and then add modules to fill you fit out and play till it meets your requirements.

If you think T1 Battleships are fine in null sec sov wars, you’re out of your mind.
@DragoFire



There is no reason to use a BB fleet (or BB support wing) over a HAC fleet.

My EWAR proposal only makes it so a handful of BB’s could be used for support, it still wouldn’t make a fleet of them preferred over HACs.

In that regard BB’s need help in scan res and cap, and I may suggest, tactical modes.

only reason T1 Battleships would be used in NullSec SOV Wars are as meat shields/Cheap expendable targets while proper Faction/T2 Battleship engage.

though T1 Battleships with proper fits work well in FactionWars and the like, but NullSec SOC Wars are a different breed of beast.

Please read the linked threads so you can make an informed contribution.

My proposal keeps BB’s weak against cap (as they should be), but gives them the ability to suppress HACS (without HAC mobility and ADCU). It also doens’t make HACs useless, just makes them more of a hit and run (warp off between ADCU cycles). The BB’s would still have to be weary of HAC’s at all times, but they could reliably keep pushing them off field. They also wouldn’t be able to chase the HACs.

why would I read Reddit topics?

non-official, if its related to EVE Online it should be on the offical forums, if not then there’s an issue with the topic so it has to be hidden on Reddit.

sorry, it’s like someone saying go read Reddit topic on Star Citizen it’s more detailed!!!

EvE reddit section is as pertinent to EvE as the official forums. Been that way since the game’s inception.

Most balance proposals (and eventual implementations) originate from reddit. The CCP devs are also well in touch with the EvE reddit.

EvE reddit is also more active (user input) in the balance field than the official forums.

The wide plethora of user comments of balance, counter balance and theory crafting (and theory killing) on Battleships (in 2020) in those linked threads would enlighten you to the current nullsec status of BB’s.

half of what is posted there is 7months old.

T1 and Faction Battleships just last week got an 10% HP bonus to all three pools, plus a Scan Rez increase.
(amended % vaule)
a few months ago BS’s got a warp bonus.

half of what you have quote on Reddit is out of date and not even current.

comparing HAC to T1 BS’s on a one to one is just stupid to start with, in Nullsec Battleships flying solo are just asking to be killed by HAC’s.

HAC’s against a Fleet of Battleships will die as soon as their ADC’s finish and they have to wait for the time to finish before they can restart the ADC’s. A good FC will know this and make the HAC’s work to get the few kills they might get before their ADC deactivate, then do focus fire on the HAC’s and melt them off the field.

Hate to say it nothing new in the Reddit links you posted…

So what if half the proposals are 7 months old. They still apply. And those buffs were not exactly sufficient so far.
Btw these are the changes:

" * All Tech I Battleships - which includes faction hulls - receive 10% increase to base hp and 30% increase to scan resolution"

The 10% (not 20% as you posted) is countered by the overall nerf to resistance modules. Also proposal doens’t include a base scan res increase. Just a module that increases scan res and EWAR defense for 5-10 seconds. Choosing the scan res bonus instead of the defense/offense/prop bonus would prevent the BB from using those other options for 45-60 seconds.

Btw, it’s because of REDDIT that we got the base scan res bonus. So much for your reddit hate.

Btw, over the long duration of a fight, 10% HP increase is silly compared to resist mod nerf for subcap logi application. The resist mod nerfs should only have been targeted at Caps.

and point is?

the resistance adjustment has made little effect on most BS, only those with already Max value modules have taken a hit.

most have change tank fits and already doing what they were doing before with very little change.

and I see no comment about the HAC vs BS one on one comment! is it the fact that this is true, that idiots solo flying BS’s in nullsec have issues with HAC’s?

do these same players have issues with T3 TC’s also? be surprised if they didn’t!

look in Nullsec BS’s shouldn’t be flying solo anyhow, most players know this, if you fly solo you fly a cloaked ship or cloak-fitted ship, you watch DScan and in Nullsec you have local as an added bonus.

and if HAC’s are an issue fit to counter them, there’s heaps of ways to screw over HAC’s, and the ADC has a very limited amount of resistance bonus time, after that its a long wait before it’s available again.

very little else to say, other than know your ships, know your enemies, and learn to use your bonuses and their weakness.

there is never a magic fit, as there is always someone out there with a better one.

I couldnt’ care less about “idiots flying solo BS.” This thread has never mentioned them.

You’re adding a giant strawman. Because you’re losing the argument. Also the “magic fit” is another strawman you put up.

And the resistance changes do affect BB subcaps more than any other subcap, because the logi reps they receive over time are equally nerffed. If anything BB’s are now even WEAKER vs caps.

Your argument about ADCU’s were already mentioned (in agreement) by me earlier. Please learn to read.

And if you don’t see HAC vs BB arguments in the three reddit links, you need reading comprehension lessons as well.

@Stitch_Kaneland

I think (with my proposal) with your proposal in mind (I read yours a couple of years ago and it stayed in mind) would be:

Mega: Line Ship (no ewar bonus)
Hyp: Scram Bonus
Domi: Damp Bonus

Even though my OP gives the Mega the Damp Bonus. If the mega got the Damp bonus it would need a serious reduction of firepower as a consequence. In this setting we make the Domi the Line Ship.

However you’re original suggestion also works:

Hyp: Damp Bonus (to force other BB’s into close range)
Mega: Line Ship
Domi: Scram bonus.

I’d like to hear your input overall though. I also agree that Gallente is the most difficult race to balance. Being forced to engage a Hyp in grapple range is nutzo! lol. That’s why I prefer the Damps on the Mega.

yes 100 battleship fleet damp down 100 hac fleet now comes the part where you tell us how any fc is going to assign a unique target to each of his 100 fleet members in a matter of seconds …

This is a great set of proposals. So for Minnie we’d have Mael with web bonus, Phoon with TP bonus, Tempest as line ship (more damage or application) and all would get extra mid and cap?

Higher tier mission and anomaly rats would need a buff as PVE would be affected quite a lot though

1 Like

If PvE had to be adjusted vs BB application/tank, that would be fine.

1 Like

Having to do something other than command 99 other bots to press F1 would be healthy for this game.

LOL

I jsut reread what you said.

Your fleet member random choose 2 targets each in 100v100 and puts 2 damps on them.

Law of Probability gives a 95% chance that no less than 90 hostile ships would have 2 damps on them.

Law of Probability gives 74% chance that no less than 68% hostile ships would have 4 damps on them.

You use the nCr combinatoric probability distribution.

If each Megathron random chooses 4 ships and puts one damp on them, you now have a 99.95% chance that at least each hostile ship has at least one damp on them.

87% chance that any hostile has two damps.

21% chance any hostile has three damps

2% chance any hostile get hit with 4.

1% for 5

sub 1% (cumulative) to get hit with 6 to 100 damps.


Thus the Fleet commander chooses if he wants more random breadth (each mega chooses 4 different ships) or more random focus (each mega chooses 2 different ships).

Higher breadth increases the total amount of hostiles damped (at least one damp); higher focus increases the amount of individual hostiles with at least two damps, but leaves more hostiles possibly untouched.

Higher breadth is to force range (reliable), higher focus is to stop damage (reliable).


You can use the below diagram for a quick estimation of random choice, although it’s not as accurate.


Let us now show how the real formula would work:

Let G = number of allied megas
Let E = number of hostile Muninns.

Let a = number of damps on Mega
Let b = number of damps used on each target.
Let n = number of targets randomly chosen by a single mega, such that:

n = a/b, where n is a whole number.

For the mega we have 4 mid slots, one is reserved for Prop mod.
We can fit 3 damps to a mega, so:
a = 3
Since n must be a whole number, b cannot be equal to 2, therefore:

b = 1 or 3, therefore
n = 3 or 1.

We will assume the case of b = 3, such that each Mega chooses only one target and puts all 3 damps on them, therefore n = 1, this is the FOCUS model.

Now say we have 100 Megas and 100 Munnins, then:

G = 100
E = 100, set E = {e1, e2, e3…e100}
n = 1

The first Mega chooses his target, {e1}

The second Mega chooses his target, with (E - 1)/probability of NOT choosing {e1}. This would be a (99/100) probability. Call this target {e2}.

Before we move on, you must understand the following combination chart for the binomial coefficient:

.

The amount of distinct pair combinations that the first two Mega pilots can choose is given by the formula nCr; or 2 C 100 = 4950, let 4950 = Y

The amount of same choice combinations is simply 100, where the first and second pilot chose the same target. Let 100 = Z.

let X = (Y + Z) = 5050. The chance that both pilots choose different targets is TRULY (Y/X) = 98.02%, the TRUE chance they both chose the same target is the compliment (Z/X) = 01.98%

Now let us proceed to the Third Mega pilot, he chooses enemy {e3}. The number of distinct combination that {e3} is not {e1} or {e2} is given by the formula 100 C 3 = 161700, let this be equal to T.

T = 161700

Since 100 C 2 = 4950 distinct {e1, e2} pairs, and there are 100 same choice {e1,e2} pairs (Y and Z).

There are still 100 same choice pairs where {e1} = {e2} = {e3}.
There are 161700 triplets where {e1} ~= {e2} ~= {e3}.

We know need to know the chance of {e1} = {e2} but ~= {e3}.
We set {e1} = {e2} = {h}. Then for each {h} there are 99 choices of {e3}. The number of choices for {h} is 100. Therefore there are 99(100) combination for this scenario, which is 9900 choices.

We repeat this again for the case of: {e1} = {e3} but ~= {e2}.
and we repeat again for the case of: {e2} = {e3} but ~= {e1}.

Both of the above yield 9900 separate combinations. Let 9900 = Y

Now we can proceed to obtain the true probability the Mega Pilot 3 chooses a third distinct enemy.

Let X = (T+Z+3(Y)) = (161700 + 100 + 3(9900)) = 191,500.

Then there is a (T/X) chance, 84%, that the third mega pilot does not choose a Muninn to damp that was not already damped.


As we proceed up the chain from the third mega pilot to the last Mega pilot, it becomes far easier to count the probability that any particular subset of Muninns is NOT damped.

All that awesome math and you forget that most players will just select the first two in the overview.

Nope. You tell them to sort by name and random choose from the middle. People who play this game aren’t dumb. You must really think poorly of us.

Using three damps, I’d tell my fleet to choose one person near the top, one near the mid and one near the bottom.

You’d get this approximate distribution (per one-third block of the name list).

The true damp distribution would appear as (overview sorted by name):