Ideas to improve new player experience and retention

[Dracvlad]

@Ramona_McCandless

Im not debating that, but c’mon Dracvlad, you know I dont like the word “forced” when it truly doesnt apply. No one is saying “You must go to low or something bad will happen”. They are saying “If you would like more rewards, go here.”

Forced in that they actively reduced rewards and made it a pain, I avoided faction missions and missions that took me into lowsec, they made the penalties more stringent and I found that I was having to wait before I could ask again for a suitable mission even when I had three characters with the standings to accept level 4 missions, it got silly and very annoying, I would use forced for that. But I used the word push, so I understand your point on the use of forced.

@Ramona_McCandless

I agree with you again, in principle. But Im not really sure whats to be achieved here other than to make High the one stop shop, and pretty much complete the deal thats been already happening; create a two tier system where there is only Null and High.

I go into lowsec to nab some of that nice ice to make fuel blocks more efficiently, and I have noticed more people doing it now. In hisec you also have certain people controlling the ice fields via a number of methods. There is danger in hisec of course, but as many gankers are lazy and full of themselves they do tend to go after low hanging fruit which does end up being newer players. There is a reason it took so long for you to be ganked and that I have never had a successful gank against me (well a thrasher when I was shooting gankers.) We know what to do to avoid them and we can use the right ship and fittings.

[Ramona_McCandless]

And thats what the NPE should help teach if CEOs arent willing.

There isnt more threat from players now when there were more people subscribing, hence objections to further insulating High Sec or any other place from threat.

If you feel that the increased NPC threat (from Trigs etc) is a good alternative, then I am in agreement, but is it because there needs to be that threat?

Id love Blood Raider agents to be in easy reach, for example. I could post that its unfair on new players to not let them join the Guristas for example instead of the Navy. Would it make (non-Lore) sense to make them available in High Sec?

[DeMichael_Crimson]

Yeah, in the process of trying to get players to leave High Sec space, over the years CCP has either nerfed or removed content that was originally in High Sec and has either buffed or added that content to Low Sec.

[Theron_Larkis]

Weird, I get this underbelly feeling that the OP’s ideas are less about retaining newbies and more about his personal playstyle and preferences.

[Dracvlad]

@Ramona_McCandless

There isnt more threat from players now when there were more people subscribing, hence objections to further insulating High Sec or any other place from threat.

I saw the threat levels to new players in hisec rise over the years that I have played. The low hanging fruit comment is exactly what the issue is.

@Ramona_McCandless

If you feel that the increased NPC threat (from Trigs etc) is a good alternative, then I am in agreement, but is it because there needs to be that threat?

I liked your post because of this, there does need to be an increased threat level from the environment. But if you meet a group of these Trig scouts and you have no idea what they are as a new player they will get blown them up before they have a chance to get away, so the NPE must be changed to include these in so new players can see them for what they are.

@Ramona_McCandless

Id love Blood Raider agents to be in easy reach, for example. I could post that its unfair on new players to not let them join the Guristas for example instead of the Navy. Would it make (non-Lore) sense to make them available in High Sec?

I think they have to be in the space controlled by those factions, though perhaps clandestine ways of doing it in Empire could be developed by CCP.

@Theron_Larkis

Weird, I get this underbelly feeling that the OP’s ideas are less about retaining newbies and more about his personal playstyle and preferences.

Whereas I having done what he is doing felt it was more to keep new players active and involved in new and interesting content.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Dracvlad

I saw the threat levels to new players in hisec rise over the years that I have played.

I have to ask, because the players that remain got smarter, or more deadly in some manner? The reason I feel compelled is, Crimewatch (as weaksauce as it is in both directions) does put a certain pressure on the capabilities of providing High Sec threat. Coupled with lower player numbers should mean that (to new players specifically and around in general) that crime should be lower in general.

One of the reasons I wave a CODE. pennant from my cheapseat is because they actually got off their asses and did something as an organised group. Id be even happier if more organised groups existed on EITHER side of the great tear divide.

@Dracvlad

if you meet a group of these Trig scouts and you have no idea what they are as a new player they will get blown them up before they have a chance to get away, so the NPE must be changed to include these in so new players can see them for what they are.

I wholeheartedly concur. Once they see how easy it can be to get away, I imagine there should be a drop in dead Destroyers at gates and complaints on the forums. OFC, making Destroyers actually useful beyond gankery and salvage would also be a good move, but outside of this topic.

@Dracvlad

perhaps clandestine ways of doing it in Empire could be developed by CCP.

And while that would feed my need, would it be better on the whole? Well, tbh EvE is one of those few games where you cant easily choose an NPC faction, its kinda either 1 of 4 identical Empires, or Null atm, so I could easily lean more in favour of a Smugglers Den in High somewhere you might need to probe or somethign to find to get some nice L1s or something. But wouldnt that start the process all over again if someone wants a Guristas L5 near Vaajaita? For the noobs ofc

@Dracvlad

Whereas I having done what he is doing felt it was more to keep new players active and involved in new and interesting content.

I agree with the principle, Im just not sure about the results of moving so much content into High and protecting it with harsh CW.

Im not wanting to strawman you like so many others do, so Im going to phrase this differently;

What is the purpose of Low Sec if there are equal or better rewards in High Sec that can be more safely farmed, and what is the purpose of lower level missions at all if a new or newer player is expecting to do Level 5s within a short space of playing time?

[Hugo_Spacca]

Hello guys,
Thanks for the replies. I just want to point out a few things:

1. I have no problem with nullsec. Nullsec content is great. same for lowsec and WH.

2. Personally, I do not care to stay in highsec and play PvE only. What made me stay in highsec for quite some time is the social aspect of it. Not many great spaceship MMOs out there. Lots of players do like spaceships and like to casually play in highly secure space. So if they are willing to pay good money for their sub, why not keep them engaged? does not hurt anyone to do so.

3. I am not saying that highsec should have the same rewards as low or null or wh. Actually I would not like that. I am just saying, do not starve new players / pve players from content. Let them play what they like for as long as they like. make lowsec/nullsec rewards just so much higher and the good ones will just move there and get organized. And those that won’t move? well who cares? as I said above, all good as long as they are playing, having fun, and paying their sub.

[Dracvlad]

@Ramona_McCandless

I have to ask, because the players that remain got smarter, or more deadly in some manner?

Actually the reverse, they got lamer and lazier which meant that the new and more recent players got the most grief from them, people like me have almost zero threat from them.

@Ramona_McCandless

The reason I feel compelled is, Crimewatch (as weaksauce as it is in both directions) does put a certain pressure on the capabilities of providing High Sec threat. Coupled with lower player numbers should mean that (to new players specifically and around in general) that crime should be lower in general.

The issue here is excess, I thought the farming of freighters in such an industrial way with low risk and high rewards was out of wrack with the game balance in hisec. I was not so bothered with nullsec idiots getting farmed, but hisec haulers really were screwed by this.

@Ramona_McCandless

One of the reasons I wave a CODE. pennant from my cheapseat is because they actually got off their asses and did something as an organised group. Id be even happier if more organised groups existed on EITHER side of the great tear divide.

To be honest the current bunch are rather sad. You have Kusion who was an indy player who then went into freighter ganking, he was not PvP’ing bfore and that should say something about this. The rest of them mainly blow up new players and more recent players and actively try to wind them up. You posted in a thread where there is a good example.

@Ramona_McCandless

I wholeheartedly concur. Once they see how easy it can be to get away, I imagine there should be a drop in dead Destroyers at gates and complaints on the forums. OFC, making Destroyers actually useful beyond gankery and salvage would also be a good move, but outside of this topic.

Destroyers are fine, the removal of the -25% ROF on destroyers was a massive buff to ganking when it was applied, but it is now covered by the mining barges and exhumers having balance choices at this point.

@Ramona_McCandless

What is the purpose of Low Sec if there are equal or better rewards in High Sec that can be more safely farmed, and what is the purpose of lower level missions at all if a new or newer player is expecting to do Level 5s within a short space of playing time?

There are better rewards in lowsec, I gave the example of ice, there is an ice that has no isotopes in it but has more of the other stuff, which is very important when making fuel blocks. With the adding of moon mining in hisec the higher end ores are not worth it, but people are taking more risk by having a structure. So.… In terms of missions there are not just level 5’s but also some stonking DED content which certain lowsec players do and try to protect them.

Level 5 missions require people to gang up, they are group content in hisec, but you can solo them in lowsec in a carrier…

@Ramona_McCandless

I agree with the principle, Im just not sure about the results of moving so much content into High and protecting it with harsh CW.

I think that the CW changes were more than I would do.

@Ramona_McCandless

Im not wanting to strawman you like so many others do, so Im going to phrase this differently;

I have the impression that you want to engage in a friendly discussion with me.

Maybe I should not say this, as it may appear as if I am blowing my own trumpet, but I blocked them after I had gained everything I wanted from them during those discussions. I interacted with a number of different people and got to understand their weaknesses and attitudes, and of course mine and I developed my own understanding and attitudes further.

I am not weak willed or bothered by their feeble attempts at mind games, because I had seen it all before in many years of game play.

I always worked on understanding my potential enemies, but what was disappointing that none of them were worth having as enemies. I played with Cohenberg on my own ground once, but with the bumping stupidity it was too imbalanced for me to take him on. I would rather play the player rather than the mechanics.

A lot of the gankers will yell at me things like you are weak because you don’t…, but I am not doing this for their fun, I am doing it for my fun.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Dracvlad

I have the impression that you want to engage in a friendly discussion with me.

All I have ever wished is peaceful co-existence with humans. They insist on making it difficult, however I appreciate and reciprocate friendly discussion when offered, even if I disagree on the positions we hold.

I dont really see a reason to list any disagreements with your statements, suffice we both know I do hold differing views.

Sadly, that is the way of the worlds.

[Hugo_Spacca]

Actually, I have no problem with this. Remove highsec so that nobody can exploit game mechanics to gank who he wants and safely camp a gate on a tornado for 20 hours ? no more catalyst suicide ganking because they would be shot out of the sky at the gate? I like that.

Better than the highsec we have now for sure!

[Eivar]

High sec wasn’t always this comfy, yet EVE still managed to acquire and retain players for a long while. I’m not sure high sec itself is problematic, it’s more the prevailing notion that it’s “safe”, as opposed to “safer”, which can makes low sec seem too much of a risk for some corps.

That said, I agree that new missions, more anomalies, different activities…in all security zones…would help. I just don’t share the opinion that an L5 mission belongs in high sec. By that point, a corp (even a pve one) should be able to give as good as it gets in more dangerous circumstances.

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@Hugo_Spacca

no more catalyst suicide ganking because they would be shot out of the sky at the gate?

Dude, you don’t get it, do you.

[Xuixien]

“the amount of revenue CCP gets from griefers”

Griefing is against the TOS.

“Highsec mechanics exploits by griefers, gankers make the new player very likely to quit soon.”

CCP has analyzed the data and disagrees with you. Getting ganked or blown up makes a new player more likely to stay past the initial 30 days.

“Lack of meaningful and fun PvE and group PvE content in Highsec compared to other MMOs”

This I agree with. I think missions need to be tuned up to make them a bit harder, start introducing more diamond NPCs. Still soloable but much easier and faster with a friend. Maybe iterate on the way rewards are shared in a fleet.

A “Fleet Mining Ledger” would also go a long way to facilitate actual group mining instead of just alts/“donate it all to the corp” styles.

“3. Level 5 security missions. Bring Level 5 missions back to Highsec where they belong. This provides higher tier PvE content for players that do not care at all of PvP. It is not going to happen that PvE casual players bring their expensive PvE Fits in Lowsec where they get hunted, killed, or just waste time waiting for quiet time to do what they love: PvE. Tweak rewards as needed but let players be engaged in group content.”

No. EVE is a delicate balance of risk vs reward. Right now that is broken. You are proposing to break it further.

“5. Incursions. Incursion nerf did hurt the PvE players quite a bit. Do whatever is needed to shake things up. ISK/Hour too high? well make all sites harder a bit more random, so that you really need a very good fleet to pull off the HQ sites. smaller or worse groups will have to do VG or Assault sites instead. Do not starve players from their content!”

Incursions shouldn’t even be in the game if you take the lore seriously; Sansha’s Nation has been smashed by Drifters. At least they’ve reduced Incursion frequency. But CCP is gonna have to do something about them (and Sansha NPC space and how to acquire Sansha items) eventually.

“6. Invasions. Make those worthwhile to do for Incursions people. They would love to. Bounty+LP instead of Loot is much better for very large fleets.”

No, no, no. The entire deal with Triglavians was to provide rewards that don’t add more ISK to the game or rely on an LP store to balance the faucet created by bounties.

“Players are getting ganked and griefed in Higsec. And they leave the game. That is a fact.”

Wrong.

“1. Alpha accounts. Remove destroyers, attack battlecruisers and combat battlecruisers from alpha clones. Want to try the game? sure. want 100 alpha accounts to grief people that pay their subscription? not cool.”

It’s already against the TOS to play more than 1 Alpha account at a time.

"2. Stealing. Stealing is a criminal act in highsec. No more exploiting the mechanic that one toon shoots and gets killed by concord, and another one takes the billions loot with really no real consequence.

3. Loot. Ships destroyed near gates or stations, get their loot instantly confiscated by concord. It goes in asset safety and player can get it back after some time, paying some fee similar to asset safety.

4. Suspects and Criminals. Players that become suspects and criminals, will have a very long timer that stacks up according to their previous criminal activities. Kill a player in highsec? Sure. get blown off by concord with no chance of escaping. Get a huge security standing penalty, respawn in lowsec. try to make your way to highsec and get shot on sight by concord. Offending player gets a mail from concord. Concord offers to clean their security status, but they need to pay concord an amount of isk equal to killmail value +30% admin fees."

No, this is all garbage.

[Xuixien]

@DeMichael_Crimson

Actually yes, CCP has been trying to get High Sec players to leave it for years.

No, all CCP has done is iterate on risk vs reward.

Right now HiSec is very rewarding (especially with moon mining), but it’s not all that risky compared to other space. The only reasons there’s more ships destroyed in HiSec than anywhere else is player density.

[Mark_Marconi]

No the main reason is that unlike Null was, you cannot spot the wolves from the sheep, especially as the wolves do not log on until needed.

As to very rewarding, are you kidding me??? look at the rewards in null and even lo-sec, Hi-sec is where the slaves go to barely grind out a living, unless you are ganking someone elses hard earned isk.

[Ramona_McCandless]

It all depends what you intend to afford really.

[Dracvlad]

@Xuixien

Right now HiSec is very rewarding (especially with moon mining),

War dec them and remove the Athanors.

@Xuixien

but it’s not all that risky compared to other space.

By design.

@Xuixien

The only reasons there’s more ships destroyed in HiSec than anywhere else is player density.

Won’t disagree with that and the lack of real conflict in nullsec due to power creep, I suppose that is hisec’s fault (I know you did not say it, but people would blame that on hisec if they could.)

@Xuixien

“Players are getting ganked and griefed in Higsec. And they leave the game. That is a fact.”

Wrong.

Proof required, I did an analysis of people who were scam ganked in their freighters, the initial pass found that 80% had left the game, as I went through the victims of an especially active one I found it went down to 40% of the victims before I gave up on the analysis having analysed about half his victims.

PS scam ganked is where the bumper tricks them into taking a duel.

[Punctator]

nobody cares - they sold us already.
now we just wathing how pearl abbys ruin the game completly and some funny people speaks “my eve”.

[Xuixien]

@Mark_Marconi

As to very rewarding, are you kidding me??? look at the rewards in null and even lo-sec, Hi-sec is where the slaves go to barely grind out a living, unless you are ganking someone elses hard earned isk.

Compared to the risks, yes, HiSec is VERY rewarding.

[Xuixien]

@Dracvlad

War dec them and remove the Athanors.

So they lose a bil maybe, but 1 pull even in HiSec provides at least a bil of ore.

@Dracvlad

By design.

Right and “by design” it shouldn’t be as rewarding.

@Dracvlad

Proof required, I did an analysis of people who were scam ganked in their freighters, the initial pass found that 80% had left the game, as I went through the victims of an especially active one I found it went down to 40% of the victims before I gave up on the analysis having analysed about half his victims.

PS scam ganked is where the bumper tricks them into taking a duel.

EVE Fanfest 2015: Using Science to Help Newbros

I’m not going to believe one letter of your “analysis” until you post your methodology and how you operationalized it.