Betas should be a cheaper (paid) option - but that also means Alphas need to be hit with the nerf bat. Still no T2 ships for Betas, though.
Even if CCP were to return to an entirely sub based model, they should keep paid cosmetics. Why? Because they don’t affect the gameplay experience at all, and it gives CCP more money to develop the game further. Personally, I think they give away way too many skins for free.
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You’re right. Newer generations of players have been bombarded since they could handle a piece of computing gear with “free to play” and impulse spending, and are far less critical about such “modern” monetization models than they should be for their own good (and benefit).
That does not mean subscription models are bad, nor that they should be replaced by a model that costs more or one that makes the playing field unequal.
I am not in favor of a “beta” model that un-evens the playing field for subscription paying customers. It has no place in a game that heavily relies on long term customer loyalty, and would just be a new source for future complaints about the game being un-even for alphas, betas and omegas.
Why not go down the whole Greek alphabet while we’re at it?
I think Gama has a nice ring to it.
It’s not really about whether or not it’s bad… just that CCP may be forced, eventually, to get rid of their sub entirely to stay operational.
The game play is already unequal.
I don’t see much difference between the current model and an in-between price point.
The only issue I see, is the potential upward pressure it would cause on omega pricing. The next time cap proliferation becomes a problem, instead of scarcity, the sub price for running caps would go up instead.
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and how they get their money ? only from skins ? doesnt make sense … they loose a lot of money if they get rid of their sub modell !
if there is no difference why do we need this ? oO doesnt make sense
Having a subscription model as well as micro transactions will drive away the group of people who don’t like subscription models and the group of people who don’t like micro transactions.
What do you gain from that?
True, but CCP has decided they don’t want to go full f2p, so you’ll just have to deal with it if you wish to play the game. EVE also isn’t really the type of game that has mass appeal due to how menu intensive the client is and the fact that you have to play zoomed out to play optimally. So likely, they will make more money from subs than pure f2p.
People who don’t like micro transactions put up with them as long as they don’t directly sell power. So it’s basically a non issue.
Also, PLEX was initially introduced to combat rmt. It puts downward pressure on how much botters can sell their isk for, and as long as you have an open market system like EVE has, you’re going to have a risk of rmt.
From that point, it was a natural evolution to modify the way plex worked to also apply to to their cosmetic store.
Based on the (unsubstantiated) claim that microtransactions would be sufficient to stay afloat ? Might as well just scuttle the ship. CCP is more insightful than what some seem to give them credit for.
Not outside of the alpha / omega dichotomy (and what skills individual players bring to the table, but that is true even for whack-a-mole). The ingame trade of PLEX makes sure of that, in its own special way.
Since the core of the gameplay, the real basis for any player, is SP, a beta status would inevitably have to involve the SP pool available, skill levels and access to ingame goods and activities. That is a new level of inequality (I do consider alpha to be a demo, not a new way of doing things in a bad albeit contemporary fashion) between players. Demo or not demo, I’d like to keep it in that very clear way.
If this forum is any indication, it wouldn’t take long to make the new difference quite visible.
Maintaining games is not expensive. Its the corporate bureaucracies that evolve around them that gets expensive. How many times have you learned that cool games are made by a single person? Yet CCP has almost 200 people working for them and the game gets nowhere.
Case in point this thread where an official responded and was like “this is good feedback we have a whole team working on it” but there has been no update for over a month even tho several simple and effective suggestions have been made.
Based on the idea that subs wouldn’t be enough to stay afloat in a future where not enough people are unwilling to pay for them. Businesses generally try everything they can to stay operational before they shutter the doors. I have my doubts that a full f2p model would be sufficient as well… but other games do manage it… and as you say, CCP is pretty insightful, so they might be able to make it work.
Beyond the alpha / omega discussion (which I wont even go into since we fundamentally disagree on the demo / f2p aspect of alpha - and it’s not overly pertinent to this discussion,) players can open their bank account and inject skills or just buy a fully trained character. There’s also the fact that the game is 20 years old, so a new player coming into the game is at a major sp deficit in that way.
On top of that, if you have the hardware to run it, and willingness to fund multiple omega accounts, you can multibox those accounts, both in pve and pvp.
Some of those things are issues you just have to accept, in dealing with a game like EVE or with the history EVE has, but it is a factor that comes into play, and it does keep people from joining.
Whether or not these things are bad things isn’t the point of me bringing it up, merely that it is what I initially said, that “gameplay is already unequal.” Fortunately EVE segments various parts of the game, so if you go hard into specificity, you can catch up “quickly” in terms of relevant sp, but other issues still persist.
Is this a complaint about people being whiny again? At least with the beta sub, the ships people could actually fly wouldn’t be nerfed… it’s mainly just about removing caps and nerfing some industrial capacity. Op did also keep the alpha sp cap in place, which I don’t think it even necessary if CCP kept the double sp training que place for Omega.
That said, I don’t think you’d see as many complaints about alpha if the ships they could fly weren’t hobbled. Just remove bs and bc, keep the industrial / money making restrictions in place, then let them fly t1 frigs - cruisers to their full capacity (plus the modules they need for those ships.)
For example: why can’t alphas use a t2 ab? That’s a silly restriction. The lack of it isn’t going to push people toward omega clones. It’s just a pain point that will make people think, “this game sucks,” and uninstall it.
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I’d categorize that under “temptations”.
That’s coming from a player who 1) never injected sp; 2) only has one omega account; 3) started playing the game when it was already 8 years old, when titans and supers already were a thing; 4) has heard and read all the arguments about alleged SP deficits and disadvantages and thoroughly disagrees with these arguments, having survived or circumvented all of them; 5) did buy skins via purchase of plex.
The only thing I do see that is different is the mindset… EvE is supposed to be tough to survive, let alone master it. That, and only that, is why it has always been a relatively small game in the landscape of MMOs.
You, or anyone else, can go on repeating this ad infinitum, and still uphold the notion that alpha is not a demo version. Maybe no access to t2 AB’s is silly. But it’s also a consequence of a very clear choice to draw the line between alpha and omega, demo vs sub. Remember, alpha’s do not have to pay one single cent to play. If this game sucks for “reason of restrictions”, then CCP most definitely does not need your (lack of)) business. Pay for what you consume. Alphas already received a free take away lunch, now they want a table at the window too ?!
We agree on the fact that the demo is free to play.
Perhaps you missed the fact that OP does not list a single reason for having a “beta” sub.
That’s great and all, but you’re not debunking the comment about inequality. If anything, you’re reinforcing it, and merely saying it doesn’t bother you. Which is fine, I don’t care either way, but that was never what this part of the discussion was about.
All of this is irrelevant. Why are you getting emotional? It’s quite reasonable to ask this question.
It’s not about whether alphas should have more stuff for the sake of giving them more stuff. It’s about creating an environment that’s healthy for the game.
And if anything, I suggested to take away more things than to give them. Being able to fully utilize up to t1 cruisers isn’t too big of an ask.
And quite frankly, ccp would be better off keeping alphas locked in highsec (or at least empire space) than the current ship restrictions. Would be easy enough to implement too, just make what ever content CCP wants to restrict require safety red, or prevent alphas from going safety yellow and make that restricted content to require yellow safety.
To combat p2w accusations, restricting content is a much better approach than restricting capability.
We disagree, because I don’t see it as a demo. Demos can’t be upgraded to the full version without downloading a significant content patch. Demos don’t play on a live server with people who have the full product.
Likewise it’s not a trial, because trials are limited to a certain time frame.
It’s the full product, with an optional premium package. This is how CCP markets the game. And it’s also what happens when you actually engage with it as a new player.
Seems self evident to me. A lower sub level gives people who wouldn’t otherwise pay for a sub, a subscription level they’d be willing to engage with. The objective, is to give more money to CCP.
Obviously that would have to be balanced, because it is possible for CCP to lose money instead of gain it.
No. The alphas are in the same flow of the game, and for all practical purposes limited in time (time = sp accumulation, alphas have a hard cap).
Your wishful thinking and projection, not mine.
No. They advertise on their webpage “play for free now”, that does not mean it’s a f2p game. Anyone assuming it’s the “full product” hasn’t been paying attention to the SP hard cap.
Noble effort at embellishing , but untrue. The objective is to get deeper access while paying less than full access. It’s bargaining. Consequences for anyone else be damned, right ? You mentioned some of those yourself, like the pressure on full omega price, or on super piloting, w/e.
I just feel super sad my 4 omega subs were destroyed by CCP over so little. So little that wasn’t even CCP’s fault. And yet, CCP decided I wasn’t a viable customer. Jokes on them.
That’s why I said I didn’t intend to engage on the topic, because it wouldn’t be productive.
They literally advertise it has “free to play.” I’ve seen that several times in actual production trailers they’ve made. I don’t intend to go searching for it right now, but I’ll toss some other evidence your way that’s easier to find at the moment.
From the steam store:
Notice in the genre section, it’s tagged as “free to play,” but no mention of subscription at all.
This one is closer to what you said, but when paired with everything else I’ve shown you so far, it just makes it seem like a customary f2p game. This is taken from one of the trailers in the media section of the steam store.
The best you have in favor of what you’re saying is this:
But to be honest, there’s no context for what that means, and this is the only place on the steam page that even hints at a subscription for the game. Most gamers seeing this would likely just assume it’s like the season pass / limited subscription that doesn’t really impact gameplay that most other f2p games have.
Even on their home page for the game’s website @ eveonline.com there’s barely a mention of the sub, but right in the middle of the screen there’s a large “play free” button.
contrast that with:
Once again, no context for what “omega” is, and on top of that, that webpage element is not even a permanent part of the homepage, it’s an alert for a special they’re running.
Furthermore, if you scroll down… there’s no mention of the subscription, but there is another big “play free” button.
It’s not unless you specifically click the omega button from the above picture or “store” tab on the website that you finally get some clues as to what the sub even does for you. The omega button will take you to a page that will reference the ship, skill, and other lockouts, but the store page barely mentions the 2x training speed
Beyond that, the only place where I saw information about what omega entailed… was clicking on one button in the steam page:
That’s barely visible compared to everything else on the page, but if you do finally click the link, you’ll taken to a dlc content page, and shown this:
It’s kind of shady, especially considering that buying omega through steam will only apply it to the account created through steam.
So yeah, omega is listed as dlc, and you can’t find out anything about what it does for you unless you go to the dlc page in steam. And likewise, information about what omega is, is hidden behind clicks on their game website as well.
And it’s not like I’m saying CCP shouldn’t be doing any of this, but don’t think you can gaslight me into believing CCP doesn’t market the game as free to play, because they obviously do. And if they’re marketing it as a free to play game, then it effectively is one.
I can’t say I know what the op’s motivations are, but CCP’s motivation for accepting the proposal would be, as I said, to earn more money.
I mentioned the potential pitfalls because I’m trying to have an honest discussion here. I do understand there are challenges that may be unsurmountable, but it can’t really be known if those can or can’t be overcome until there’s hard data to suggest either way.
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So you want to have a discussion on the real meaning of advertisements ? Not from me you will. You can have the final post, in the spirit of Christmas. Enjoy. Just look up the meaning of “manipulation” and of “there’s one born every minute”.
So that 20M SP hardcap is just there because … ?
Ever had a Redbull ?
Honestly, you believe all that stuff ?! Enjoy !
Merry Christmas.
Yeah, let’s break stuff to prove it could be broken. Good plan.
If they claim the product is something it isn’t, that’s a potential case for fraud.
The direction things are going doesn’t scream “resounding success.” I’m not prophesying doom and gloom here, but it is true that EVE servers have roughly half the concurrent users from their peak about a decade ago.
Recent expansions have been well received, but the overall userbase hasn’t seen continual growth in terms of server numbers. Even with Havoc peaking at 40k, it’s already settled back to pre-havoc numbers (server has 26k as I type this.)
To bring this back around to the op and to keep this post from going way off topic, it seems quite clear that there are many people who find the current pricing to not be worth their money.
As an example, a post from another thread about the winter omega sales:
The laws of supply and demand are ever in motion, and even if they weren’t, it’s not such a simple thing as “charge more money = get more money.”
When CCP bumped the sub from 15 a month to 20 a month, they lost roughly 5k concurrent users. I don’t know what that means in terms of actual subscribers, but considering that CCP also ran a slew of special sales during that time that put the price at or below the previous price, I imagine it was significant.
It was only uprising that brought the server numbers back to pre-fanfest 2022 levels, but this graph doesn’t tell us how many of those numbers are actual subscribers. Considering the fact that both uprising and viridian were fairly alpha friendly content releases, it’s very possible subscriber numbers not only didn’t climb, but they very well could have dropped further.
The point is, is that CCP seems to be searching for a better way to do things, and separating caps into a higher payment tier could be one of those ways to move forward. I’m not really sure how CCP would test that. Maybe limited time beta clone sales?
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Try establishing a fraud claim in court for an advertising slogan, especially if you refused or neglected to read all the information on the product. Or did you get wings from Red Bull ?
And how long did that peak last, and why did it last (only) that long ? A case of “many were called, few were chosen” ?
What the good people in that thread did not mention, or simply forgot or weren’t aware of, is the fact that there has been the “usual” 20% off Omega offer in August. I know, because I bought it and am safely sub’d into 2025. How you construe that to mean “many people who find the current pricing to not be worth their money” instead of the truism that “people are looking for a bargain near the holidays” is mildly amusing and very much misleading. And perhaps ccp will have a pure 20% omega offer before this year’s end, like they had on Dec 28, 2022.
It’s always amusing how people read into the PCU graph and interpret it in any way that suits the “point” they want to defend mordicus. Even when that includes the use of unsubstantiated hence unverifiable claims. It’s “very possible they (subscriber numbers) could have dropped further”, being overshadowed by totally naive, new alpha accounts who were drawn in via Steam because of “havoc” ? That’s some funny fabrication there, sowing doubt like a pro but never showing the underlying numbers - because you, nor any other non-CCP’er, have access to those - and hence only have a single point through which you can draw an infinite number of lines.
Setting up one part of the player population against another is not very Christmassy, if not simply discrimination without any basis whatsoever. That would come down to "let’s increase sub prices for anyone who has more than x number of SP or x levels in the following skills: … ".
How about giving Cap pilots a discount instead for 1) having not much use for cap ships these days and 2) feeling the results of “scarcity”. LOL. See ? That would be a more popular suggestion, and is likely to draw more people back into the game than what you’re suggesting.