Sure thing.
Well good luck producing t2 cruisers with acceptable margin if you are not producing in null second alliance maxed sotiyos and not having access to buy value composites
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So why are you pretending to have a T2 manufacturing operation - that you apparently enjoy - that you clearly know nothing about?
I dont, thats what Im saying I had to close it down due to the industry changes.
Look your trolling is poor and you arent even making sense.
Gonna ask you once politely to stop clogging the thread with it, please.
His point is that it doesn’t make sense producing t2 stuff (most of, but clearly almost all the ships) if you are not part of a big alliance or if you don’t moonmine - PI for yourself
With the actual changes, the need of integration and dependency to industrial complexes of null sec alliances just increased even more
For t2 ships it doesn’t matter because it’s already the case since long
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This hasn’t changed. Although if you do the reactions yourself there is much profit to be made here, although I guess margins will be tighter if you are not in a null block.
Hes just trolling, just ignore him. I explained that, you understood it, now hes just arguing for the sake of it.
Of course you can make the reactions yourself for making the t2 ship, but that means your profit is in the reaction, and not in its assembly for doing the ship. I am pretty sure that for >90pc of the ships you actually loose money by assembling the t2 ship if you are not part of the nullsec blocks
But that’s not the point really of this topic
The point of the topic is basically underlining that CCP is aiming at doing structural changes to the game to increase/improve dynamicity of the game, agility by driving the people to move and contest in smaller blocks, but what they have done for industry just strengthen even more the null blocks in their total industrial monopoles and overwhelming advantage against others.
And production, is a main core concept of the game.
World War Bee was a good proof of it. Resilience of Imperium was, I believe I am not a great analyser, partly due to their overwhelming industrial power and overal industrial organisation rather than raw firepower and number of pilots.
Edit : finally, because the volumes are greatly increased for all the affected items that you mentioned (faction, battleships, capitals) this even more focusing on the large blocks as mobility and hauling is vastly affected because the required volume of good to produce the same ship increased a lot, bringing down multilateral trade and promoting internal trade.
I gave the example of the jump freighter. I used to buy in high sec, produce in null sec, sell in high-sec. This can’t be done anymore. The entire scheme must be done in nullsec. First because I don( want to spend 3days doing 3 HS-NS jump freight travel to bring the stuff. Second because it costs hundreds of millions to jump drive. Third, because you increase the risk of being tackled, and I don’t want to loose a 13b jump freighter full of ■■■■. So everything must be done internally to the alliance, and this is a pity for the game
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Ramona: not sure why the industry changes have forced your hand in closing down T2 hull production. They never were profitable to build unless you’re doing the reactions from scratch, and even then the large blocs have such abundant supply (particularly goons who run their mineral production for coalition benefit, as I understand it, so pay well below market rates for ores).
If anything, the marginal reduction in I put cost for the T1 cruisers should have helped offset that, to a minor degree.
If you really wanna do T2 hull production, your best bet is to find a lowsec Freeport and set up stockpiles there for your reactions, and try not to get blown up extracting. There’s a foolproof way of doing this, but it will eat into margins slightly. Or, you know, DST, MWD+cloak and you’re golden.
These are the areas where - as a small industrialist - you can really make bank. With the new capital and BS production it takes an inordinate amount of time to produce certain components. Now is the time to be firing those middle components out of the oven as fast as possible, as the demand for caps could start to rise with the introduction of these new sites. Prices for the reacted components have dropped considerably, availability is pretty good, so pick one of those final-stage components, grab some BPCs from contracts and start churning some out. There’s still serious profit to be had there
I was doing it in a WH and tbh while I was making a marginal profit, it was just to be doing it really.
It just seems as every time I get into doing anything other than hauling or market CCP changes it up to make the supply chain, outlay cost or process take even longer and with more steps.
This doesnt effect bigger operations but it makes it feel like they just dont want solo players building anything other than T1s. Which would be fine if theyd just say it, but really continually making changes that dont just suit big groups but actively cut small business out is frustrating as hell.
And yes Im still extremely ticked about Cores.
Id also been doing a side line in Orcas and Frieghters but well thats an even bigger shipstorm now.
Nah, it only feels like that Ramona. The effect is just the usual churn in Eve - playstyles come and go as things get nerfed and buffed. I learned from my first ever corp that diversification is everything in Eve in terms of income. Keep a few plates spinning and yeah one or two might break but the others are still going, and you then get the space to start the next plate up once it becomes visible, if you catch my drift.
I have my training done for the capital final stage components now, so hoping that that can spin some funds into the wallet. If not, I might even have to go ratting (yuck!)
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Thanks, I appreciate the optimism 
Thing is I just dont have the energy to get into a whole other section of mats making, may as well get into PI too and go the whole hog.
You know, maybe I could pick something small and work on doing the chain needed… Ehh maybe. Curse your infectious hope!
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I realise I’m replying to the wrong person - apologies.
I’m not trolling, I’m pointing out some of the comments in this thread are wrong, for example - the industry changes have had zero impact on the production of T2 cruisers. If anything it might well be an excellent time to build these ships, the faction cruisers they compete with were nerfed by the resist changes and made more expensive by the industry changes. You’ll have to run the numbers to find out.
The change in requirements for the t1 ships seems as much an opportunity rather than an issue, I’m pretty sure there are plenty of people making isk finding and selling these if there is demand.
Earlier in the year (before the changes) I made a Vargur, in high sec (using a public refinery on the edge of low) for less than it would have taken to buy one from the market. All material was bought off the market, minerals, reaction inputs and fuel block inputs.
It’s a complicated process with many steps and I admit I have all of blueprints required except the tempest - I simply bought a bpc off contracts.
The simplest part of this process was building a tempest. Does that not seem a bit off. Building a t1 battleship, which is for many players a goal in itself, was a quick and easy part of the process. In my mind it feels wrong and therefore I am happy that this has been changed, that there is now a step between building a t1 frigate and building a t2 frigate.
This game requires cooperation to get big things done, it requires time, effort and skill to make things happen. If you want to make an industrial empire it should take cooperation, time and effort. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of smaller items that can be made and sold for a profit in high sec if you want to play solo, for years I plexed 2 accounts through hs industry with a a pair of characters who had about 10mill skill points between them.
Anyone using the MER to demonstrate how the level of industrial production has changed will have a hard time separating effect of the capital production changes from everything else as they will represent a huge chunk of the market. It is clear to me that ccp are keen to make capitals way more expensive. Any change to the rest of industry will be masked by this and therefore who knows what the effect has been.
I did notice some items were in very short supply during the summer, however I have not had any problems buying any ships, mods, ammo or rigs recently.
One final comment - vertical integration is the key to profit in industry, you buy the reaction inputs, pi and minerals and sell completed products that sell in good volumes. Leave the mining, hauling and pi to people who enjoy these things.
I fully agree with most of what you are saying. However, I… hmmphhh … it’s not a matter of discussing wether it’s possible to make money as a manufacturer while being out of nullsec blocks. I am playing this game (not for the entire time!) Since 2006. And before 2019 I was not part of nullsec blocks so I totally agree with you : you can do money out of nullsec blocks
The problem is not the complexity and vertical integration of the manufacturing process of EVE, it’s good like this, the problem is that the new mechanism promotes internal trade, giving an additional advantage to nullsec empires, reducing multilateral and inter-regional mouvement of goods and hence flexibility of smaller structures / manufacturer.
You can complexify and make a capital much more expensive. I have no problems with that. I even hate capital ships (except jump freighters), my problems comes with the fact that again the large blocks have an even bigger advantage now than before
And this game needs decentralization
We will see with time if what I am saying is correct or not. If the jump in delve-vale of the silent-kalevala trade by contract is due to internal trade or not (maybe simply due to capitals mouvement)
Reducing mobility of goods - because you force centralisation of processes - and reducing multilateral trade - because you force centralisation of processes - is never a good thing.
By giving advantage to is basically forcing
I believe ccp should force in complexification but decentralization of manufacturing process chain, from raw to end product
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The CSM strikes again. Over and over and over we see changes done to the game that ultimately benefit the larger blocks. I don’t even know how smaller alliances function these days (props to you, you have no support from CSM or CCP).
This is what you get when you put null sec alliance leaders and the current CCP dev team together.
CCP has decided that their evolution of the game will be accomplished not by new content, story and interactions but by nerfing the absolute crap out of everything.
I swear - I wish someone in their office would be daring, and risk something new - Instead of nerfing things all the time. Someone in that office has it in their head that more is less. But really, less is less and a lot of us see that.
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