Jin'taan in TiS. Some thoughts about CSM from total random player

Council Of Stellar Management Jita Park
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Hi,

While topic is bit personal, addressed to specific person I would like to talk about CSM as whole and how normal players outside main game politics and big blocks looks on things related to CSM. I mention @Jin_taan because he raised few interesting topics in yesterday TiS broadcast. Anyway, enjoy wall of text.

Everyone know that generally people don’t have good opinion about CSM. Mainly claiming that they do nothing, do things to help them, their friends or being just a puppet of big blocks in game.
For people like me, casual players who don’t take part in politics inside game, don’t track what happens there this how it looks from outside. In my opinion main reason is that everything that CSM do is done behind closed doors. We vote for some people, CSM is made that supposedly should be face of community in front of CCP. But if not dig half of internet to get some information, we get only “Summit Minutes” two times in year and some forum topics. This is what see casual player. I know this is not caused by CSM members because there is NDA and other stuff to make them unable talk much but CCP. CCP needs to advertise CSM more, bring them more to players. Let the people feel that they can come to CSM and be heard abut their ideas and thoughts. Live streams with community questions, AMA events, more discussions on forum, you name it.

And this brings to some of my personal experience with CSM. Over that 4 years that I play EVE I created few, only few topics here in CSM section of forum. But didn’t get even single reply, word, reaction. No one even said “this is dumb, go away”. I don’t even know if any member of CSM has ever read what I wanted to say. Funniest thing is that I get more help from GM than CSM. Once when I was having some problems that GM helped to solve and this results in some ideas. I gave them to GM. He said that he understand my concerns and advice how to change things to avoid such problems in future. He will pass that to people that deal with such ideas but he said also that good idea is to bring this issue to CSM attention. And guess what? I wrote topic here but CSM don’t care about it. Probable never read it.
I think I should get more help or at least attention from CSM as they supposed to be first place where community will go about such things since they represents community, not GM.

Lets go back to voting for a moment. I and many peoples that I talk about it feels like there is no point in voting. You get feeling that your vote/opinion does not matter at all since big blocks will pick their people and you can’t do anything about it. So what is the point?

I think last thing I want to mention are members itself and what they do in game, what type of gameplay their represents. This part of broadcast https://youtu.be/amTBKEtDXqg?t=2615
Yes, nullsec people started in hisec, ben in low and maybe do some stuff in wh. But this people can’t represent actual gameplay in that parts of game. Null people who do trading, industry etc. cant represents whole experience of hisec, lowsec, wh etc. How many of this guys did hisec only things like farming DED sites for isk, doing missions, even mining or other activities that most of people do there? I bet they don’t have idea about what is going there. Jin’taan, you said you using wh space to travel around new eden and you think this makes you good person to represents wh people? What experience you have in making isk in wh as daytriping solo player, small corp, big corps? What experience you have in maintaining corporation inside wh, logistics etc?
That’s why I think that even if CSM have big number of null people with huge experience and great understand of mechanics in game they can’t represent’s activities they simply don’t do since they don’t know much about it.

This seams to be all I wanted to release from my head. It’s huge wall of text but as I mentioned before if managed to read all or part of it, hit that like button or react just to show that this is not wasted 3 hours of writing that no one will care about. This is more important to me than you may think.
Also sorry for terrible english “skill”. Tried as much as I can to make this readable and possible to understand.

~Mac

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Yes, the CSM and the underlying process we have to form a representative body has some problems. Communications appears to be the number one problem, surpassing even having a more “representative” make up of players in the CSM. Most of us don’t really care that much what affiliation or area of EVE you play with, we just care that you represent ALL areas of EVE and EVE playstyle fairly equally. I actually think that honest and intelligent people can do that; I think certain past and present members of the CSM HAVE done that. The minutes of the summit always seems to indicate that thoughtful discussions that approach issues from several different directions were a common thing. The problem lies in the CSM communicating and reaching out for our opinions for them to present to CCP.

Brisc was great in at least reaching out and engaging the population in all its aspects. Jin 'Taan did an ok job last year in being the foremost CSM member to engage with the community, but Brisc’s efforts easily dwarfed any previous CSM efforts. Agree or disagree with his view on a subject, if you posted a thoughtful or intelligent question or two in the proper forum, Brisc was there to at least reply. He actively searched out different playstyles participated in different chat channels, and, according to summit notes, at least brought up and argued for some ideas that ran counter to his own…because people asked him to. THAT is what a representative is supposed to do.

Now he’s gone and that line of communication and outreach by the CSM is apparently severed. The usual suspects will get re elected by their blocs and while I think they will put the whole health of EVE first, there is no way I can see them actually representing many of the things I feel are needed to be refined and improved. I’m not sure that at least 6 current members of the CSM have posted on these forums and Suitonia, Jin 'Taan, and Steve have been mostly silent the entire year as well.

So, if the current system doesn’t work, please propose an alternate one that would better represent the entire player base, doesn’t cause issues with NDAs and would be easy for CCP to implement. I like the idea of focuss groups based on “specialty”, but also realize that sometimes the answer needed comes from approaching the issue from a different point of view. I guess that I’ll have to be satisfied with having a CSM made up of players from different areas and play styles than mine and, as long as they are honest and willing to reach out to other views, I can live with that.

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At least in this instance, your English was fine, and you raised very valid points, especially concerning the visibility of CSM members, or rather their lack of visibility and interaction with large parts of the EVE community.

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It’s a very valid point actually, Except for maybe the exception of @Brisc_Rubal who got involved on the forums all the other CSM members campaign to get voted in and then disappear from view once they are in. I wont even tin foil hat the reasosn for it, but it is very telling.

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What would you consider appropriate responses from CSM members?

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I’m not sure if the question is to the Brisc incident or general CSM responses. What I would like to see is a general outreach by SEVERAL CSM members to hear and consult with those groups of players outside the large null sec alliances. Groups like WH, LS, FW, and HS. Actively form round tables, enter this forums’ threads, do mass mailings to those active in their respective forums, originate polling on topics/issues…anything to stimulate and obtain input from outside their collective blocs.

Of the ten current members of the CSM, how many were active in these, the official, forums? How many actively sought out players from all parts of the EVE spectrum and engaged in meaningful conversations with them? If their main purpose is to offer feedback from the players on planned EVE development, shouldn’t they have some contact with those outside of their normal groups?

I rarely find fault with any one CSM representative in regards to game knowledge; they usually know the ins and outs of all aspects of EVE. The same goes to their effort and honesty in trying to make the process evenhanded; with a few notable exceptions, the CSM has been a credit and asset for all. Where I do find a need to improve is drawing from the point of view from those who play EVE in a different style than those large null sec blocs; actively persueing, sitting down, and engage in meaningful back and forth. Brisc could and did do that.

In regards to the other issue, it’s clear that all those involved would rather move on…and since more answers will have to percolate down to those of us at the lowest level, I’m willing to look forward.

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Thanks. I guess there are two issues.

  1. Direct response/interaction - As Mac-Gregor originally discussed, wanting to know that the idea or concern was heard.

  2. Survey of wider player input - As Bouytender Bob mentions, where the CSM member is proactively reaching out, as opposed to reactively answering to an interaction.

Am I understanding correctly?

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As a whole, I would say “yes”.

Whether it’s the CSM member acknowledging input from a player and their opinion on said input or the CSM actively seeking to initiate interaction with the player base, the CSM needs both as a body and individually to become more communicative to those outside their specific bloc.

I know they communicate quite well within their own communities.

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Huh. Sorry I missed that one. (Assuming you’re meaning the job slots one.) It’s a fair concern. I don’t suppose you submitted a bug or support request over it? (Mostly so I can refer people to that. I know it’s sorted for you now)

To touch on a number of your other points:

The bloc voting thing; Not voting makes other people’s votes stronger. It’s kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. It’s possible to get onto the CSM without bloc support (I did. multiple times) though if you’re coming from an area where there are multiple candidates trying to get in (Such as wormholes or Faction warfare), it’s worth educating your voters on how the STV system works, and asking them to vote for the other candidates in your area, after you. Just so they don’t cannibalize each others votes, leading to no-one getting on. Sure, you might not like Candidate Y as much as Candidate X, but you’d prefer candidate Y to candidate G, because they at least have a clue about the things you care about. (wormholes have had trouble this way) Think ‘political party’. Similar common goals.

As for coverage of play areas, that’s really a side effect of the above. if those areas don’t rally behind candidates, they won’t get direct representation. Highsec’s had representation in the past. Like Mike. (and kind of myself, as that’s where I do pretty much everything. But I have no illusions that most people who vote for me do so because they know me from my tools)

Anyway, perfectly understandable post :slight_smile: and it’s always good to see people taking an interest.

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I have all intentions of doing just that.

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Any time I’ve had an issue I wanted to raise with CSM, I sent one of them an Eve mail - generally linked to a Google Doc. Decent formatting tools make it a lot easier to get your point across! I’ve always received a response.

As also mentioned in the TIS broadcast, there are still 300,000 players in Eve and less than 30,000 votes for CSM 13. If you choose not to vote - you are accepting the choice of those who do.

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I replied in original topic about that. But while this was main example here, this was not only “bad experience” with CSM for me. I created more topics or discussions even before this CSM but they looked like ignored. I know that most of time you guys read them if even not reply etc. but point of original post was that this is wrong solution for me.

Maybe people don’t know on who to vote? One of my first CSM experience was add/banner in launcher that there is election going on, please vote. You open candidates page and you get something like this https://community.eveonline.com/community/csm/candidates/
I personally feel like im just reading another election posters which only look good. Maybe CCP idea is to force players to google all candidates and find more detail informations about them?
Yes, we have “campaigns” category here on forum but lets be honest. How many players actually read forum? I think candidates interviews also needs to be more public and easier to access for average player so they have better idea who is representing they ideas.

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Candidate interviews are handled by player media.

In the past they’ve been done, and it was brutal for the people doing them (50 odd interviews in a relatively short time frame)

Iirc, there also wasn’t a particular uptick in voting, or even views on the interviews.

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Mainly because - no offence - it doesn’t actually do anything.

Answering you guys suggestions or complaints about things that aren’t huge concerns and CCP is unlikely to change is effectively just me doing community management work for CCP, rather than actually getting things done on the CSM to make the game better - Such as the wardec changes, April capital and balance changes, and the push to get the Rorqual economic genie back in the bottle.

All of those required me to be inwardly focused and communicating closely with CCP, rather than the outside community, in order to write breakdowns and analysis which would be conducive to those ends.

I appreciate that you feel the CSM should be a responsive, political body, which regularly engages with you on a daily-weekly basis in order to show we care for your concerns - and I did that for a while, as I agree it would be a good thing to have.

However, quite frankly, ■■■■ doing that for free. I have better things to do with my life, and limited time to spend on the CSM. I’d rather be trying my best to advocate for changes than telling you guys I am doing such so I can have the privilege of arguing with you other whether I’m doing enough.

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Perfectly honest and logical response; you’re not getting paid to do CCP’s job in community relations and player liaison. I completely agree with you. THAT being said, CCP has dropped the ball over the last year or two and, with the gutting of the old CR staff, has created an even wider divide between the devs and their customers. Ditto to avoiding obvious pitfalls and missteps. Recent events have made that perfectly clear to all.

The problem is that CCP continues to fall back and either develope something that no one is actually advocating for ( see RW,etc) or further developers something that is either fine as is or no one uses often (see activity tracker, map). Whatever well of information or advice they are getting their direction from KEEPS FAILING to provide accurate information or feedback. This problem has been going on for years.

Problems with the effect of the old wardeccing system on HS and player retention was complained about for at least the last 6+ years. We were rebuffed and told there wasn’t a big enough problem to fix. Suddenly, a 180 takes place by CCP and they make some of the long advocated for changes…following bleeding off of at least 6 years of players. We complain that we would like new missions ( thanks for the burner missions, at least) for all levels of ability and are told that a) no one is asking for that,b) since people are still doing missions they must be satisfied, and c) are given Resource Wars as new content.

Both CCP and the CSM need more sources and methods to gather information on what people are asking for and feedback on what they are looking at. Both groups tend to congregate around each other and, apparently, some form of reinforcement or group think can become a problem. This apparent disconnect with the different types of EVE players is causing certain groups of players to leave at an accelerated rate.

So tell CCP to reinforce their Comunity Relations Department and tell them they must be far, far more active in reaching out to the under represented play styles. I agree it’s not your job to pick up the workload of CCP, but you can poke them often enough for them to get awake and do their job.
Lord knows, they don’t appear to listen to us regular players.

By the way, you always have a place on my annual voting list.

Edit: Damn, forgot you said you were not running…another good rep lost.

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I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the CSM doesn’t have a speck of influence on this matter, as we don’t control how CCP apportions their budget.

Thank you for your kind words and thought out response however, it is very much appreciated.

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Yeah, I understand the lack of official influence your group may have, but it’s far more likely that they are going to respond to someone they are in contact with in official way on a weekly basis than some of us “line” players. Your offhanded comment or point you raise with them during one of the regular CSM contact points will have far more influence than numerous clearly written emails from numerous players.

Well, at least Mike is running and there’s no way he’s going to remain silent…still going to miss you and those who went the extra distance over the recent past to try to keep the game healthy.

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Maybe I’t would be effective to have each csm member paired with another csm member one focusing inwards one focusing outwards (for those that enjoy dealing with the community) and working closely together (Csm Teams). Might need to double the candidates then as to not dilute the amount of internal communications done.

I can understand time is a thing, so focus and specializing would be the answer as you did, focusing internally but at the same time you are missing a lot of critical info, the community has thousands of brains ripe for the picking its a massive resource and would be a shame to not utilize that resource.

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Mac-Gregor;
I really understand where you are coming from and it can be frustrating. The more people I listen and talk to are voicing the same things. The general community at large is feeling like they have no one they can contact that might even care. I know, because I have been there myself and it’s one of the reasons I decided to run. Will I win probably not? Does that mean I am going away? No, it just strengthens my resolve to continue to voice our frustrations.

I will completely admit to being bad about replying on the forums, unless things are addressed specifically to me, I tend to just read and skim over what others are saying. Posts tend to devolve the longer they are and turns into either people just trying to make each other mad or down right bad behavior that does not accomplish anything besides making a whole bunch of people angry.

I would rather people drop me direct messages so then I could even just bring those idea’s or even complaints onto a stream &/or video to where others might be able to hear and participate directly. I’d personally rather my representatives talk so that way I can judge the tones of their voices, instead of the written word because in this day and age it can be misconstrued or taken out of context.

So please feel free to reach out to me directly, it’s always nice to have things to talk about on stream.

Liz

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