Large Fleet Fix to Monster Nuking Ship Blobs

[Luke_Perceptinator]

Yep this was what I was attempting to offer an idea about

Thanks for taking the time to see that.

[Luke_Perceptinator]

@Ramona_McCandless

You’re wrong

That was easy.

Lol thanks for your opinion, not so easy, why do you think that?

@Cypherous

So then you just get blobs of smaller fleets doing the exact same thing anyway and now you have multiple instances of this ship on the field, i already broke your idea

Multiple instances of this ship on field? Please read my idea fully before stating your opinion fully otherwise it's not as valuable. I believe only allowing 1 of these in the fleet (per fleet) and the fleet has to "stay a certain size" to keep it on field actually counters your breakage of the idea.

@Induce_Deadline

Just to add as I suspect you’re one of those newer anti veteran players… Any MMO needs that longterm hook, supers are great at that, it took me 4 years to get my first titan, that’s a heck of a lot of sub payments to CCP, but the journey was a blast and it was reading about the supercap battles like BR5 on PC Gamer that helped build that incentive to do it. Loved every second of it

I'm not anti anything mate, perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you or something, I'm trying to offer a suggestion that might fix all of the complaints I'm hearing all the time about titan blobbing stopping them from having really good fights.

@Induce_Deadline

This won’t be a popular opinion here, but I think this is why you can see CCP being very careful, when they introduced the scarcity phase and nerfed supers

I think scarcity won't be a long term fix you need something that will make the players nerf the supers. Scarcity wont' hurt the right players to do that.

@Induce_Deadline

Thankfully CCP is staffed by adults who make calm, measured judgements based on facts, reasoning, metrics and the bigger picture.

I actually agree with something you said, but it doesn't appear to match the rest of your statement.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Think through what you just said, and logically try to determine whether it made any sense. No, don’t start typing a response yet; think first , then start typing a response.

I totally agree with you Destiny, thanks for your comment it has added value.

@Destiny_Corrupted

Look man, no one’s trying to take your e-peen space pixel away. No one’s even asking for it to be nerfed .

Really, the only thing that people want is for a counter to exist to supers that’s not just more supers .

Agreed.

@Induce_Deadline

That said, I do not think somehow enabling a small man to whelp a super is the solution as we’d all just fly subcaps

I really don't think you actually get my idea dude, hopefully if you read it again you might? If not please address a counter to my idea that actually breaks it so I can possibly clarify what your not getting.

[Luke_Perceptinator]

@Induce_Deadline

Completely agree with that, hence why I want to see more multi tril supercap whelps to bring down their numbers, they absolutely need to be special that also provides the longterm hook for people to want to fly them i talked about. The most enjoyable parts of the game for me are sending my supers into massive battles knowing today could be the day i lose most of my Eve net worth… And I do that willingly because I want to show solidarity with my alliance friends. UALX was the last time I had that chance, i was nervous, had serious pvp shakes and my voice cracked on comms as i jumped in… Loved it.

Yep I agree with your statement here, maybe my idea doesn't reach this, however, the complaints I'm hearing is that everyone has super caps and that it's a problem which is why I thought of having a beast available to both fleets if everyone blobs super caps they die. Possibly changing my idea to only be allowable based on the number of super caps on field to keep those numbers down? might be an idea.

@Induce_Deadline

So the point of contention appears to be, you want to bring down the number of supers by allowing subcaps to whelp them

No that's not my idea but possibly someone elses.

[Luke_Perceptinator]

@Destiny_Corrupted

Look, it’s really simple.

There’s just no reason to bring any ship other than a supercap to a fight, if you’re able to bring a supercap. Why would you put pawns on the chessboard if you can use as many queens as you want?

Yep exactly why I brought my idea forward.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Luke_Perceptinator

the fleet has to "stay a certain size

So I pad my fleet out with alts. now fleet fights are about who has the most alts. sounds epic…

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Luke_Perceptinator

It’s a convoluted idea that’s not realistic even by video game standards.

In what way?

This part:

@Luke_Perceptinator

To break down the idea; CCP could make a major monster ship that could be spawned by an Alliance for a fleet, for disposable ISK, but you can only have 1 per fleet based on fleet total size.

“Spawned”

In EVE, things don’t “spawn” - they get built, and then physically transported. Because this ship wouldn’t be built, it also likely wouldn’t drop loot. Where does it come from? Who made it? All of these considerations needs to be addressed. It just sounds really arbitrary otherwise, almost like it’s a fantasy element made up on the spot. But at least in a fantasy game, you can explain things away with magic, which isn’t something that EVE has.

And this part:

@Luke_Perceptinator

• If the fleet size drops the monster will despawn to POD.
• It kills Titan and Super Capitals. BOOM!!

Why should something de-spawn if a fleet drops to a certain size? Are all those fleet members remotely assisting the ship, without which it can’t maintain structural integrity?

Also, how much firepower are we talking about? Because the way you make it sound is that you basically pay a certain amount of ISK to erase someone’s 50-billion-ISK investment without really performing any work aside from getting enough people into the fleet. What’s the counter, if there even is one?

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Induce_Deadline

Don’t tell me to review my post again to try to arrive at what you disagreed with, actually explain why you disagree with the notion that small ships kill small ships and larger ships kill large ships.

It’s such an obviously stupid concept that we were hoping you could figure it out yourself and salvage some dignity instead of having to endure the public shaming of having it explained to you. But if you insist:

If small ships kill small ships and big ships kill big ships then why bring small ships? Sure, they’re invulnerable against the big ships, but they also can’t hurt the big ships. If I bring a fleet of nothing but big ships all of your small ships are dead weight that I can safely ignore. If I do anything to compromise my “big ships only” rule all I’m doing is giving you free targets to kill. And everyone who isn’t an idiot knows this and would only bring big ships, effectively removing small ships from the game.

The simple fact here is that a balanced game requires small ships with the ability to effectively hurt big ships. You have to have something that is enough of a threat to force people into taking smaller ships to deal with it. And you have to repeat this kind of balance at every level of ship size, so there’s never any incentive to build monolithic fleets that make everything else irrelevant.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Luke_Perceptinator

I believe only allowing 1 of these in the fleet (per fleet) and the fleet has to “stay a certain size” to keep it on field actually counters your breakage of the idea .

Except it doesn’t at all counter it. All I have to do to spawn more god-ships is break up my fleet into several fleets (all of them coordinated over third-party voice tools so minimal effectiveness is lost) and then fill up the numbers with a horde of alpha alts.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Merin_Ryskin

@Induce_Deadline

Don’t tell me to review my post again to try to arrive at what you disagreed with, actually explain why you disagree with the notion that small ships kill small ships and larger ships kill large ships.

It’s such an obviously stupid concept that we were hoping you could figure it out yourself and salvage some dignity instead of having to endure the public shaming of having it explained to you. But if you insist:

If small ships kill small ships and big ships kill big ships then why bring small ships? Sure, they’re invulnerable against the big ships, but they also can’t hurt the big ships. If I bring a fleet of nothing but big ships all of your small ships are dead weight that I can safely ignore. If I do anything to compromise my “big ships only” rule all I’m doing is giving you free targets to kill. And everyone who isn’t an idiot knows this and would only bring big ships, effectively removing small ships from the game.

I really didn’t want to straight-up tell him something that’s that obvious, because the way I was trained formal logic is to try to find the flaws in my own arguments before looking for the flaws in the opponent’s, and I think it’s a method that works. I was hoping he would have a “eureka!” moment and go “okay I see what you mean, but…” and expand his argument, but he got all defensive instead. And I kind of expected that, because something I’ve observed from null-bros is that they get very defensive over the proposition of change, because they are really drawn to the regimented, status quo kind-of existence. Meanwhile, as a wardeccer, I’ve come to terms that CCP is going to take away everything I love, so I always look for the next best thing, and refuse to use any FotM mechanic because I don’t want to get used to a life of relative ease.

At least he’s not a carebear, bless his heart. Being willing to only engage in fights you absolutely know you’re going to win is still quite a few steps above being afraid of your own shadow.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Luke_Perceptinator

Lol thanks for your opinion, not so easy, why do you think that?

Did you read any of my replies to others?

[Cypherous]

@Luke_Perceptinator

Multiple instances of this ship on field? Please read my idea fully before stating your opinion fully otherwise it’s not as valuable. I believe only allowing 1 of these in the fleet (per fleet) and the fleet has to “stay a certain size” to keep it on field actually counters your breakage of the idea .

Yes, so if you limit it to 1 per fleet you just get, 2 fleets of the required size, so no it doesn’t “counter” the breakage of this idea in the least, because you’ll always be in a situation where you can manage to just field a multiple of the number of pilots required, say your fleet requirement was 500 people, with 1000 people available you can summon 2 of these ships, with 1500 you get 3

No matter what number you pick there will be issues, too high and only a handful of alliances will ever even be able to field them which creates a superpower and everything ends up being owned by 1 group, assuming you even require all pilots in the fleet to be part of an alliance, in which case you just end up with the blue donut fielding multiple fleets to get multiple instances of this ship on the field because the number of pilots required is too low

Even if you required people to be in the same alliance to summon this ship you would just have multiple holding alliances that people would join for major ops, you could never limit the number of these ships in a given system because you would need to account for the chances of multiple fleets from different groups wanting to fight over something and they would all need to be able to summon their own ship otherwise it just becomes a race to get the first x ships in there to win by default

There is literally no way to prevent people from gaming your idea

[Luke_Perceptinator]

@Nevyn_Auscent

So I pad my fleet out with alts. now fleet fights are about who has the most alts. sounds epic…

I can't see how you could do that given the fleet size would be say 500+ you got that many alts dude?

@Destiny_Corrupted

This part:

Yeah it is a little convoluted there thanks for pin pointing for me. What I was trying to do was convey that they could introduce 'something' not really ironed or fleshed out that would only allow 1 in the fleet 'somehow' that would stop blobbing supers. I thought a mechanic against fleets/fleet sizes where only 1 can spawn per side that can take out the blobbing supers would work. Hard to find the right words tbo.

@Destiny_Corrupted

“Spawned”

In EVE, things don’t “spawn” - they get built, and then physically transported. Because this ship wouldn’t be built, it also likely wouldn’t drop loot. Where does it come from? Who made it? All of these considerations needs to be addressed. It just sounds really arbitrary otherwise, almost like it’s a fantasy element made up on the spot. But at least in a fantasy game, you can explain things away with magic, which isn’t something that EVE has.

And this part:

There are things already attached to fleets, I can see how my buddies are doing, I can move people to wings or squads. There are buttons everywhere to do things, my ides was that there could be a scenario where by a button becomes available for the fleet command where they assign a pilot ready in his POD to drive the behemoth and pays the ISK and clicks go. It would Warp in then, there could even be a staging bay or something that the player is waiting in.

Thanks for your clarification mate, it helps me to see where people could become confused and where I need to offer more information.

@Merin_Ryskin

Except it doesn’t at all counter it. All I have to do to spawn more god-ships is break up my fleet into several fleets (all of them coordinated over third-party voice tools so minimal effectiveness is lost) and then fill up the numbers with a horde of alpha alts.

Okay well I'll agree to disagree with your opinion that you broke it because I said your fleets 'Had to Stay a certain size to keep it' (did u miss that part?), good luck breaking up your fleets you will lose your monster ship.

Which is why I'm saying you haven't broken it so easy.

I believe people can't use alts, will your machine support over 500+ alts? Running at the same time? Dude can I have your specs please?

@Ramona_McCandless

Did you read any of my replies to others?

I thought I had sorry if I missed something.

@Cypherous

Yes, so if you limit it to 1 per fleet you just get, 2 fleets of the required size, so no it doesn’t “counter” the breakage of this idea in the least, because you’ll always be in a situation where you can manage to just field a multiple of the number of pilots required, say your fleet requirement was 500 people, with 1000 people available you can summon 2 of these ships, with 1500 you get 3…

Yeah I think I'll have to agree that could be possible, however unlikely in my opinion you would obviously have to balance it based on that I guess. Well thanks for giving more information so I could logically review why you commented that way. I can see that would definately increase the numbers but surely you can agree you will be limited with how many are on field. I've never seen a fleet size of 30k + people so I can't see them being blobbed like the Titans are currently.

@Cypherous

There is literally no way to prevent people from gaming your idea

Yeah I have to agree with your comments here mate.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Luke_Perceptinator

I can’t see how you could do that given the fleet size would be say 500+ you got that many alts dude?

You know those null groups are like 10000 chars without deliberately padding stuff out with alts right.
Also unless I missed it somewhere fleets cap at 256. It’s possible I missed it somewhere as I don’t fly large fleets often. So please reference the change if you know of it.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Luke_Perceptinator

I believe people can’t use alts

That’s nice. But in the real world alts exist, and you don’t need 500+ alts on one PC when you can have each of your fleet members bring 5-10 alts. And it’s not like these alts need to do anything besides sit in fleet keeping your numbers up, so you can leave them running in the background and never give them any attention.

Thanks for your clarification mate, it helps me to see where people could become confused and where I need to offer more information.

Your “clarification” hasn’t changed anything. Nobody cares about the exact means by which the button becomes available, the point is that you’re magically spawning a massive ship out of nowhere. This is unlike everything else in EVE, where all ships/items/etc must be built from raw materials by players.

[Luke_Perceptinator]

@Nevyn_Auscent

You know those null groups are like 10000 chars without deliberately padding stuff out with alts right.
Also unless I missed it somewhere fleets cap at 256. It’s possible I missed it somewhere as I don’t fly large fleets often. So please reference the change if you know of it.

Yeah it would need balancing as I said.

@Merin_Ryskin

That’s nice. But in the real world alts exist, and you don’t need 500+ alts on one PC when you can have each of your fleet members bring 5-10 alts. And it’s not like these alts need to do anything besides sit in fleet keeping your numbers up, so you can leave them running in the background and never give them any attention.

Off course the idea is raw and needs work. I was pointing out that the way it 'could' be setup, you 'could' have a certain sized fleet of ships. Yeah I don't think your going to see what I'm saying here and it appears your too intend on disagreeing with it, that's fine, it's a start.

@Merin_Ryskin

Your “clarification” hasn’t changed anything. Nobody cares about the exact means by which the button becomes available, the point is that you’re magically spawning a massive ship out of nowhere. This is unlike everything else in EVE, where all ships/items/etc must be built from raw materials by players.

One thing you can't do is assume 'you know' what everyone cares or doesn't care about. That said, yes correct it is unlike everything else in EVE, your point? Lets try to think outside the square and extend some creative ideas. If it helps someone come up with a better idea then mission accomplished if it fixes the complaints I hear. I can't, and neither can you, presume to know what everyone cares about.

[Ahari_Chent-Shi]

Subcap mounted precision weapons system (insert sci-fi magic here) that can target and damage capital modules (% to hit and damage tied to a skill level)

[Solecist_Projekt]

@Destiny_Corrupted

No one goes to battle giddy with the anticipation that they’ll ■■■■ up and die and lose a shitload of their assets.

THAT’S LITERALLY HOW I’VE OPERATED FOR YEARS!
DON’T DENY MY EXISTENCE OKAY??

[Ramona_McCandless]

@Ahari_Chent-Shi

Subcap mounted precision weapons system (insert sci-fi magic here) that can target and damage capital modules (% to hit and damage tied to a skill level)

Ive been saying this is what they should make mining lasers do for years

That, and exploding ice

[Ahari_Chent-Shi]

To be honest, Ramona’s Mining Lasers of Doom came immediately to mind as I typed that.

[Ramona_McCandless]

Aw thank you!