this. Also, thanks for replying Rita and ENorn, thanks for the youtube link, very interesting to listen to 
I agree with being able to name suspected botters in these threads. Anyone is free to defend themselves in the forum.
We are combating courier mission bots, and have a list of almost 130 characters that are decidedly not human players. I have submitted the list to ccp, and will wait until after the holidays before I follow up. I wish that there was at least an automated response to indicate that the email was received…
The killboard will be my public list of bots
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98541457/kills/
This is telling. In my observations of the mission bots they are timed EXACTLY the same each and every time. Whether or not the bot farmers can set random time intervals will change this metric, however they all are running typically 24-7 activity. No human does that.
As an aside, it would be nice to have a ‘block merchant’ option that removes that characters buy/sell orders from your market view. I can’t say whether any possible downside would occur but imho you should be able to refuse business with whomever you choose. Consumerism…
i use copy and paste, also the reason my updates are 10.01 exactly as the time between fetching prices and actually updating orders, can result is market flux, so to avoid this i use 10.01, what i found when i used to 0.01 isk, is i was basically matching other people values, so i adapted.
its not a bot, but as much as i can automate i do, but all within the rules.
i literally left click my spreadsheet, it uploads the new price to my clipboard, then i paste it into the price box in eve.
it is manual, but like i say i don’t need to look through all my orders to find items that are outbid, all thats is done via 3rd party app, so i only update orders which have actually been outbid.
hope this clears things up, but i explained my method in the video linked above, defo worth a watch, some useful trading info in there also.
cheers
rita o/
You were really accusing Rita of market-botting??
Anyway, take a look at this.
Basically, you can make a fully legal program that makes it so that you can 0.01 isk (or whatever amount) any and all items you want with nothing more than a mouse. You don’t need a monitor or keyboard or anything. You don’t even need to be anywhere near your Eve PC since you can remote-desktop.
You could easily take that method and combine it with a remote desktop app and a modified keyboard app to 0.01isk off your phone with 4 taps. Just modify a remote-desktop app to center onto a specific spot on the screen and pull up the keyboard upon connection, and then you just start the app, connect, and do your 4 taps for all your items whenever you have a 1 minute break.
It’s fully legal, and actually supported by CCP’s own public API.
But it’s still not 24/7 AFK botting. The program might be able to figure out what items are outbid, and to automatically pull up the market window for those items, but it’s still “one input = one keypress”. It still requires active human input for every order modification.
Which is honestly why even though I made that program I linked above ages ago, I still can’t be bothered to modify orders. Far too much effort necessary for me personally.
Also, this has been more or less possible for ages. The movement of showMarketOrders from the in-game browser to ESI made things less painful because you didn’t have to mess around with the browser, but otherwise all this has been possible since 2008/2009.
What about "
#10
- 2016-12-04 00:01:29 UTC |
Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
4
I just wanted to correct your title, what probag does is bolt action order updating, semi-auto order updating would require TOS/EULA breaking macros. The way most people update their orders is similar to muzzle loading a musket."
Isn’t macro usage “semi-auto”?
In particular, with respect to Rita’s method - how does he select the market orders in the browser? Is that also done automatically, seeing as he spends minimal time online?
I had no idea who controlled the “Minion” suspected bots. I basically put it out there, as I’m unafraid to name and shame suspected bots.
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ENorn is making a distinction that’s irrelevant for our purposes here.
The market orders are selected via script, I don’t understand? There’s an API endpoint that gives you ALL the market data, and there’s an API endpoint that lets you open up the market window for a specific item.
I am telling you that it is fully possible, extremely easy, and undeniably legal to 0.01isk any and all market orders with nothing more than a mouse. No keyboard, no monitor. No need for eyes, all you need is an index finger and a thumb. Anyone 0.01isking without such software support is for some strange reason choosing to intentionally put themselves at a disadvantage.
Edit:
And I am further saying that this does not mean there are no bots in the market, or that their behavior is excusable, or anything of the sort. It does mean that the difference between a bot and a competent individual is minuscule compared to the difference between a competent individual and an incompetent one, but why would you be concerned with inefficient behavior.
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge on this. A securities greatest tool for success is being quiet. Sharing all their secrets and tactics they are using to find threats just helps the attackers adapt.
Now yes it would be cool to get a read receipt or a simple reply of “Thanks”, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt
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I wish I had the skill to create software that would let me roll down to this sort of simplicity.
There remains an important difference between bots and humans. Even the most competent individual will need to take breaks.
Rita taken a week off? Disappeared from the Eve-Mogul leaderboards this week…
Spooked by tiny wallets.
I’m sorry for my late reply, but real life issues prevented me from coming back earlier to your kind answer. Thank you for clearing me up, it’s well appreciated!
So far so good for me. I personally don’t see a problem in a software that “tells” someone which of his market orders need an update including a new price suggestion. Then manually chosing those items to change the prices in the game client is in my oppinion normal gameplay without any doubt.
But I don’t see an advantage in having such an item list, if using that by hand.
Scrolling with the arrow keys down through your 305 market orders per character and change the prices where necessary can be done very quick.
Reading a list, selecting an item and then updating the price via c&p shouldn’t be that much faster.
However, doing that manually once per hour doesn’t explain the constant updates 24 hours a day. How do you manage your sleep for example?
In the end it leads to the question how much automatization is needed to be counted as a bot, gaining an unfair advantage over players who play how “the Game is played” - Citing EVEs third party policy.
That’s a decision CCP has to make and sadly that policy has a lot of room for interpretation.
https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies-en/
Third party programs
We will not authorize or otherwise sanction the use of any third party software. The End User License Agreement and Terms of Service are clear on this subject:
- CONDUCT
A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
We do not endorse or condone the use of player-made software or any other third party applications or software that confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or is used for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use player-made or other third party software at your own risk.
@CCP What is the definition of “how the Game is played” or “ordinary Game play”?
had you ever playing in rvb with me, you’d understand how little i sleep to be fair lol
not many people can say they’ve topped eve killboards for most kills in a month.
personally for the last 4-5 years i’ve had a weird sleep pattern of once every 48 hours.
i’d blame CCP for this Insomnia but tbh i love it, got some much time to myself and tbh i doubt i’ll ever change it, as its became part of who i am.
anyways i’m not saying there are no botters in EVE, but i would say not to be so quick to judge, there is alot of weird people out there, and i may be one of them i think haha
Nah, if I see something working like a clock 24/7/365, the assumption that this is a software and not a human will be in most cases correct. And so far I see every of my assumptions confirmed. Therefor I wouldn’t say that I’m too quick with judging. I waited a year before reporting your alt. I also never mentioned a name in this thread in case I’m wrong. - I’m pretty sure most botters would be happy with me judging over them.
But in your case, doing all this automation just to stop with it at the last point, to c&p the prices manually? That doesn’t convince me. I’m sorry but here I don’t believe your story.
With all your characters, just c&p would still be a full time job. Doing the same thing hour for hour, like working on an assembly line, only to sleep once every 48 hours or so. Doing that for months or possible years. - No!
How annoying must it be to be called every hour for the next price update session, especially while doing all the other fun stuff you now have so much time for. Also the increase in the error rates after some time.
That’s why we do automation. Because a software can do what a human doesn’t. Working like a clock 24/7/365 without any breaks and errors. And that’s exactly what I observed and where your manual c&p action doesn’t fit into the story.
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This is your problem, you don’t understand how much more you can optimise your workflow and refuse to believe the benefit of optimisations that other people are explaining to you. Read what probag said, he can update orders blindfolded with one arm tied behind his back (or used to cook) while you’re clicking through every item on your quickbar/orders and typing prices manually.
You haven’t proven that Rita updates 24/7/365 and haven’t even confirmed it for yourself. This all sounds like the common ‘trader gets beaten in market PvP, assumes only a bot could beat them, checks a few orders to confirm their suspicions’ scenario.
I don’t know whether Rita bots or not as I haven’t looked into it, but I’ve seen so many off-base accusations of botting over the years from people that simply couldn’t comprehend the kind of optimisation that people like Rita do, scale they work at, and effort they put in. I also still have faith that the security team would be able to easily spot when a publicly known player with trillions of ISK in the market, dozens of active characters, and reports from multiple players is botting 23/7 for over a year.
well to each’s own, don’t have really much reason to defend myself any further, and to be frank i find it quiet amusing, had i been botting i would have been banned a long time ago, esspcially considering the amount of people that actually suspect me of it and report me.
truth be told i did bot for about 1 month a few years ago, ccp were very quick to temp ban me for 30 days, then received another ban not long after for 3 months and told next ban would be perma, so yeah safe to say i’m not gonna call their bluff.
tbh considering my experiance with how they bots works and how easy it would be for ccp to identify botting account, its not really worth the risk imo
Who wouldn’t risk trillions of isk for a permaban?
also who the hell uses arrow keys to scroll through a list pmsl
(ironically i used to do this myself when i started out, i too thought it was quick, remember back then there was no blue highlights to hold your hand)
insider tip for ya…
add all trade items to your quickbar, then just type in what you’re looking for, it’ll highlight and open the market at that item…
just saying, you gonna do something do it right, save yourself alot of time.
i’m out anyways, if you need some trading advice drop me a mail bud kk
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