This is not true at all, the sig reduction makes a big difference, I wish all of them had it.
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Moros actually gets a sneaky 5, because someone decided that RoF and optimal is apparently just one bonus now.
This is split weapons all over again and we can’t even blame the graphics department this time.
Moros has been terrible for awhile, seems like moros navy might be decent 
super happy for it tbh.
Having only 4 mids on the standard moros sucks, can’t dual rep.
Moros needed the projection thou so I’m glad it has something, at least on capital blasters optimal and fall off is the same so doesn’t really matter which one we get as long as its some type of range.
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You mean 7.
- turret damage (1)
- turret rate of fire AND optimal range (+2)
- Armor repairer amount AND cycle time (+2)
- Warp Scram and Disruptor (seen as one module type is fine) strength AND optimal range (+2)
The battlecruisers are different case - the millitary combat battlecruisers were all speced to mostly undo the nerfs that killed off battlecruisers several years ago. Those slot layouts reflect what the regular BC was before + some of their fitting and cap + most of their tank was restored.
The battleships - each race has one navy battleship that is more about versatility rather than being a better version of the non millitary hull and their point is standout even from within its own racial designs. I hadnt considered those, but I guess fair enough that there is at least one ship that is a legitimate oddity in each race.
Still going to be supremely pissed if they screw over the naglfar fleet issue and moros navy the way they are proposing. NFI will be a useless ship with no new utility in a currently dead dreanought meta while the phoenix and rev get new utility that will actually make them useful in new scenarios and the MNI will be nominally less niche than it is now.
I totally agree with you, I would love to experiment with them
Those Revs are all wearing freighter hats.
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that happens in the main game Dude
Any news on the manufacturing costs and times for these beastly navy dreads, as well as the cost of the blueprint from what I assume will be the LP store?
manufacturing costs as 0 ME t1 dread. (you cant reserach this for ME)
BPC cost 2mil LP + 200mil isk
5 mil LP + 20 nexus chip + t1 dread = navy dread.
the Phoenix Navy’s painter bonus is nice but underwhelming compared to the upgrades the other dreads receive. The flavor text says heavier shields but it doesn’t have the tank bonus to show for it. Can’t move that 4% to a 5%?
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The Naglfar Fleet Issue should also get an ewar bonus just like the others. A 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier optimal range per level or something similar.
Minmatar Dreadnought:
7.5% bonus to Capital Projectile Turret damage
5% bonus to Capital Projectile Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to Shield Booster amount and Armor Repair amount
10% bonus to Stasis Webifier optimal range per level
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More EHP than T1. More shield capacity in general is more what they’re referring to. It already gets super capital levels of EHP now, it doesn’t need a 5% bonus.
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The sig bonus makes a huge difference to what? First of all, there is already a T1 destroyer with a better sig bonus them the new and unimproved navy model, which is silly, but let’s set that aside.
What do you expect navy destroyers – particularly a destroyer locked into gimped guns-- will be fighting? The answer, of course, is Frigates, that being a Destroyer’s primary job. Do you think a 50% bonus will keep small guns and rockets from hitting the new Thrasher? You could give it a 100% bonus and it wouldn’t really matter. It is gonna get hit.
T1 destroyers are too slow and too fragile to hunt bigger prey, and the Thrasher with ACs or Arty lacks the applied DPS at range to be anyone’s first choice in that arena.
Step outside of 1v1’s and look at more from the perspective of fighting against multiple targets. This is often the case in small gang or even just someone putting together a roaming fleet. Talwars for example are often used and if you bring in 30 talwars into someone’s space, they aren’t only undocking frigs. They’ll be undocking cruisers, BC’s and whatever assorted stuff they have on hand.
The difference between a LML talwar and an arty navy thrasher is that the navy thrasher has damage selection and instant application. Plus with it being artillery based will have a higher alpha than the talwar.
If you have 20-30 Navy Thrashers all with a small sig and going 2ks+ (Which btw the navy thrasher is faster than the talwar by a decent margin), you’ve got a huge, instantly applied alpha potential while also being hard to hit.
The talwar and the navy thrasher have the same MWD sig radius bonus now (both at 75% reduction at level 5 skills).
Says who? You do realize that all the navy destroyers have a 50% optimal and 50% falloff bonus right? Artillery is getting double bonused in range and AC’s will be able to project decently either when scram kiting or mid range kiting with a decent fit.
These destroyers aren’t balanced around being primarily anti-frigate, their weakness is a frigate getting under their guns (at least in some configurations) as they don’t have any tracking bonuses. I’d put these destroyers more as “giant-killers”, in that they are focused more on punching up, rather than specifically hunting frigates. Meaning that your assumption is incorrect on what the MWD sig reduction bonus is actually for.
T1 destroyers get used all the time to hunt bigger prey. LR corms, talwars, mass thrashers, catalysts (including ganks) etc.
If you’re talking 1v1’s, no typically destroyers aren’t chasing after cruisers, but T1 was never balanced for that. Navy has more EHP, stronger bonuses, more range and more utility to do so.
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Quick comments in rebuttal: If you bring 30 of anything you will get people’s attention, but that’s not really a measure of anything interesting. It is easy to ignore individual ship problems or imbalances in this way. Easy to say: just bring more friends, just n+1, it’s lazy. Instead we should consider a variety of scenarios, and ask which of the ships we are comparing would be the better choice. With regards to these Destroyers, unless the challenge is to win a really slow race, the Thrasher brings little to the table. They all can fit long range weapons, and the others will likely do more applied damage at range since the Thrasher will be in extreme falloff when the others are still at optimal. And yes, that really matters. So i ask, what exactly does this Thrasher bring to the table to offset it’s obvious problems? Moving along…
The last numbers i saw posted by CCP showed a 10% per level sig radius bonus. If they have since corrected this, good. It still wont really help, but good.
The problem with the Thrasher is the same issue that plagues Minmatar ships across the board, projectile weapons. There really should be no need to wade into that discussion here.
And note, I am not debating this with any personal advantage in mind. I dont really use Destroyers of any tier, but certainly not T1 of any flavor, and I dont see this changing. Nor do I spend a lot of time in Minmatar gunboats. I would, if guns were better, but it is what it is.
Range issues are overcome with skill (pings, booshes, bubbles) the thrashers will definitely compete if they are in the right hands.
If there is anything to complain about it would be the formula for tracking being so terrible inside falloff, compare small rails to small beams the tracking difference is immense.
With the same tracking the beams will hit a lot more just because its in optimal.
Compare an enyo to a retri one rail one beams the retri will land more good hits even if the enyo has more tracking on paper.
You are dramatically understating the issue. An arty Thrasher fitted for general play (some tank, point, med,etc) is applying about 130dps at 20km. A beam Coercer is doing 260dps at the same range. A rail Cat is pushing about 240dps. Even a rocket Talwar beats it, doing 160dps with Javelin-- and the Talwar will never miss. Nor does it get better if we switch to close range weapons.
In short, the Navy Thrasher is gonna compare very nicely against non-navy T1 destroyers. In my opinion.
So you don’t actively use a weapon system you claim is bad and are just going off paper stats? So i’m sure we can rely on all your other points in being based in reality and not anecdotal?
Irrelevant to the topic of discussion. We are talking about a scenario where there is benefit to the MWD sig bonus in which you claim there is no benefit. Even if that benefit is useful to groups/fleets, its still useful.
In small gang, we find it useful to stay on grid when doing frig/dessie gangs to mitigate damage against the kitchen sink nullsec always brings. If there is one thing nullsec doesn’t bring, its a lot of frigates. Typically cruisers, BCs and BS. The main thing we have to worry about is RLML, which a sig reduction can help against.
Define extreme falloff and the scenario you’re talking about. Keep in mind, the Navy Thrasher will likely only have around a 40km targeting range, the point at which you’re at “extreme” fall-off is going to be well past its targeting range with an arty fit. Tremor with the base T1 optimal bonus projects to 40km optimal, before you factor in the fall-off bonus. Sabot/Depleted Uranium projects to 22.5km optimal + 16.5km fall-off with the bonus. Which is going to allow it to project well all the way to its targeting range.
You should not be using short range ammo on artillery if you intend to kite past 20km with it. Sabot/DU give tracking bonuses as well.
Volley, as has been standard of all artillery platforms. Or you can kite/scram kite with AC’s by utilizing barrage and dipping between kiting and brawling like the wolf/sabre can do. And for those that realize the potential, low sig and higher speed.
No idea on your fitting, but even with 0 damage mods, an arty thrasher is doing 140 dps using sabot/DU at 22.5km before we even factor in fall-off. To get down to 130 dps, the range you’re applying at then is about 26km. With a single gyro, your dps is 171 @ 22.5km and drops to the 130 range at 28.5km
The problem I see here is you are not utilizing the other ammo types as they are meant to be used. You don’t use short range projectile ammo as your only ammo choice with artillery (PP/EMP/Fusion). That is why Sabot/DU exist, as well as in some cases tremor.
If you don’t use any other ammo type. Sabot/DU does more dps and has more range, as well as volley.
Also, your numbers are going off the T1 thrasher. The Navy thrasher has both a damage bonus + RoF bonus, so these damage values at range will likely go up. Meanwhile most of the other navy dessies (or T1 dessies) either have 1 damage bonus, or have 0 damage bonuses. The Navy Thrasher will see higher dps with the RoF + Damage bonus.
You are drastically underestimating to benefits of artillery fits with high alpha. You don’t go by DPS values alone, you look at the alpha. Even 280’s using sabot/DU have more alpha than your beam coercer that does almost 100 more dps. Meaning you can punch through active tanks easier and you have damage selection.
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Read and understood. I will leave you with the final word.