New death penalty mechanic (Getting podded) to replace to old sp loss

Some years ago we had a mechanic in Eve that discouraged being casual or flippant with character death in game. This mechanic was a skill point loss upon getting podded if you diddn’t have an up-to-date medical clone to cover your total amount of skill points on your character.

The skill point loss mechanic was arguably harsh since it directly impacted your character progression and investment in your account above and beyond the loss of in-game assets. While I agree with and support the removal of such a system from the game it has left a vacuum in game mechanics that has made character death via podding a cheap event with no real discouragement or impact upon gameplay beyond just an isk loss or the inconvenience of respawning at your medical clone.

Character death in game should:

  1. Be a bad thing. Getting podded should have a penalty that makes a capsuleer WANT to avoid it happening no matter how much isk or assets he/she possesses.
  2. Should impede you from simply returning to whatever activity you were doing by just replacing your ship. Whether you are taking over a system for resources, removing a competing corporation from your claim on a system or defending against such aggression podding the opposition should provide a method of effectively removing them from the fight so you don’t feel like you are competing against an enemy that is simply recycling itself and returning.

Character death in game should not:

  1. Remove the victims ability to play the game.
  2. Cause permanent or long term regression to a players character or account investment beyond what can blow up in space.

I propose a solution I feel is balanced for both the aggressor and defender that makes character death meaningful in game without harming a players sense of character progression.

Overview:
My system, upon being podded, puts 2 timers on the victim. The first timer tracks penalty severity, while the second timer tracks the duration and application of the penalty. The penalty is a temporary effective reduction in skills. This can be an effect on a players effective skill levels, or a penalty to actual stats, whatever is easier to code and track.

The first timer, that affects the penalty severity, is a long timer, something like a week by my thoughts. When it is first applied it gives an initial penalty of 15%, (For the purpose of example I will use 15% increments) and duration of 1 week. If a player is podded within this timer a second time the 1 week duration resets and the penalty increases another 15% to 30%. This cycle continues up to a reasonable cap until the player goes 1 week without being podded at which point it resets to 0.

The second timer that tracks the application and duration of the penalty is a shorter timer that resets and stacks the duration cumulatively each time the player is podded within the timer. So the first time a player is podded it will apply the current penalty for 2 hours (frex), if podded again within this timer it resets the 2 hours and adds double that (4 hours) for a total of 6 hours of penalty. If the timer expires without incident then it resets and will begin again at 2 hours.

So, for a working example:
I’m flying along doing whatever I do in game and end up in a Pvp confrontation and get podded. I get my two timers: The severity timer that sets the penalty at 15% for 1 week, and the duration timer that applies it for the next 2 hours. So, for the next 2 hours I have an effective 15% reduction in my effective skill levels. Combat, ship fitting, indy, everything (The ability to train or qualify to train skills is unaffected).
So 1 hour goes by ( I have docked up during this time to reassess my situation and decide what I want to do at this point) and I have 1 hour left of penalty (at 15%) and 6 days 23 hours left of the severity timer. I decided to move some of my stuff to another location. In route I come across the same people that podded me earlier and they are still upset at the circumstances of our previous engagement and have caught me in lowsec space. They proceed to pod me again. Now upon respawning I have a 6 hour duration on my penalty that is now at 30% effective skill reduction. The severity timer has reset to 1 week again.
Ok, I figure these guys are not going to let up so I decide to stay docked and do some ingame research on some production and jump to an alt for a while instead of risk further penalty on my character. 7 hours go by and I log my character back in. The 6 hour duration timer has expired so I am no longer suffering any penalty to my actions in game, however the severity timer still has 6 days 17 hours left on it (1 week - 7 hours) at a current 30% penalty…so if I get podded again before the severity timer is up I will have a 45% penalty to actions in game (30% + 15%) but only for 2 hours since the duration timer had already expired without incident. If both timers expire without me being podded again it all starts over from 0.

So this is my idea on a balanced, meaningful death system for Eve that discourages flippant or casual podding of players while not applying a penalty that hurts a players investment in their character/account. All numbers are for reference/example of course but are close enough to something working to provide meaningful example. If you like this idea please respond positively; if not, please explain what is wrong, why and how you would do it differently.

EDIT: The shorter duration timer should not exceed the longer severity timer, and the state of either of these pod timers should never be viewable on kill mails or by other players.

This would make it extremely difficult to defend a structure. You regularly get podded in such circumstances, losing combat effectiveness too would cripple a defence. The same would apply to faction warfare to a degree.

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That’s entirely dependent on who starts getting podded first. The mechanics swing both ways so it could just as easily make it harder to destroy a defended structure as the opposite.

And as far as faction warfare, if a particular type of gameplay, like faction warfare, is unsuitable for a mechanic such as this it can easily be excluded if both players meet certain criteria.

I would be against this for two reasons.

The first is that I want to encourage people to reship and lose more hardware, or reship and make someone else lose hardware. I think that more action and more destruction are good for the overall health of the game.

The second is that I think the eventual outcome is that players log off for a week, or have combat alts they cycle between to mitigate the mechanic, which dilutes identity or reduces participation. I want to keep player participation as high and player identity as meaningful as possible.

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Generally speaking if your at your keyboard and paying attention then a ship is all you will usually lose, so it is just a matter of reshiping and going about your business.

As to your second point, I think it is more or less already a moot point. Everybody does this already, I have 6 accounts myself. With the addition of alphas identity has already diluted itself so I really dont believe this will impact it much, if at all.

But there should be a significant difference between having a ship destroyed and having your pod destroyed.

Eve is a game and people play games for enjoyment. Eve differs from most games in that death does have consequences - your stuff isn’t “soul bound” but the loss must be quickly recoverable or the activity stops being enjoyable. Even the relatively minor loss of a rank 1 skill level with the destruction of a T3 cruiser was problematic. CCP removed the graded medical clones specifically because they were discouraging PVP in what is supposed to be a PVP game.

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Agreed, which is why my suggestion doesn’t affect skill training or qualifying for skill training. It is just an effective penalty to prevent pod loss from being negligible and overcome by throwing some isk at it.

Considering how much this game relies on destruction I think every barrier to take part in it should be removed ASAP. The more barriers you build the less chance people will take part in fights. Ship loss is already a harsh punishment, we don’t need even more. Personally I would go even further than it is now and get rid of sp loss (t3’s) and attribute implant loss.

i think we should give t3d’s sp loss as well, and everything will be fixed :slight_smile:

Considering hw much this game relies on destruction I think every barrier to take part in it should be removed ASAP. The more barriers you build the less chance people will take part in fights. Ship loss is already a harsh punishment, we don’t need even more. Personally I would go even further than it is now and get rid of sp loss (t3’s) and attribute implant loss.

Yes, but I am not discussing ship loss, I am discussing pod loss. You can pvp all day long and lose ships till your hearts content, I am not suggesting a change to that.

But right now there is no loss but isk for any sort of combat. whether you are defending something or aggressing there is no mechanic in place to make a difference…it is literally a contest of who has more combined willpower to keep going at it and the isk to field ships. There is no way to actually “win” a particular engagement because whoever you are fighting just keep returning until he/she is out of isk/ships or desire.

Unless you buy isk for RL currency via plex it takes some grining time to get. Compared to fps games where you can just pvp without grinding it’s a harsh punishment and probably one of the reasons EvE is not that popular.

As for any timers - If I have a window during the day when I can play for a while, I don’t want to wait for any timers. I just want to play and squeeze as much of it as I can. Also - I didn’t train my skills for 12 years to have them reduced just because I was doing what’s healthy for the game.

Lastly, if you’re using skill harwires you already have a reason to save the pod and a punishment if u fail.

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Says it shouldn’t prohibit them playing the game.
Proposes a mechanic where the correct response to death is to log off till the timer is up because you will just get killed again because of the penalty.

I’ve played a game with this sort of penalty. People just logged off on death 99% of the time.
Death already has a penalty. It’s called your ship is gone.

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Unless you buy isk for RL currency via plex it takes some grining time to get. Compared to fps games where you can just pvp without grinding it’s a harsh punishment and probably one of the reasons EvE is not that popular.
As for any timers - If I have a window during the day when I can play for a while, I don’t want to wait for any timers. I just want to play and squeeze as much of it as I can. Also - I didn’t train my skills for 12 years to have them reduced just because I was doing what’s healthy for the game.
Lastly, if you’re using skill harwires you already have a reason to save the pod and a punishment if u fail.

Then we fundamentally disagree on this.
ISK is easy to get, even if only because you can PLEX it and it is generally not considered a balancing factor in any case. And not everybody (dare I say most people don’t) uses implants, or expensive ones extensively…esp not in pvp where the likely-hood of loss is much higher.

But flying out to explode others for the sake of exploding things is but one aspect of the game and is covered well by faction warfare if that’s your priority.

For others there is the building and defending of organization and areas of operation and the expanding and taking of those things. And that requires a mechanic for actually being able to suppress your opponent and his ability to operate (even if for a limited time). If I am defending an area, or trying to take an area, I dont want my opponent to be able to reship and jump back in the fight almost as fast as he can reship and make a few jumps. I want a mechanic in place so I can actually succeed at removing him as a defender of aggressor for a time.

This applies equally to indys hiring merc corps to remove pirates, miners removing competition in the belts, pirates removing other corps from their operating areas, alliances taking or defending sov, or smaller corps engaging in gorilla tactics against larger enemies…it all has an actual effect under my system that makes these things worthwhile for a short time frame, longer id the losing player keeps going at it instead of moving on to something else.

This would actively encourage killing the same player repeatedly as each death would make them more and more the weakest link in a fleet. That alone makes this a very bad idea.

I think You should ask yourself a question - Do I wan’t to chase the bunny, or do I want to catch a bunny?

Reading what You wrote I jusrt can’t resist the feeling that You just want to have an edge over the opponent.

Death is suppose to matter in this game.

Is there any evidence that removing the clone grade system, and with it the cost of losing a pod, increased PvP? Or concurrent player counts? Perhaps, while less tangible and harder to measure, removing the meaning of losing a pod decreased player engagement with the game and drove more people out of the game than the activity it stimulated?

People fought and lost pods for years when podding came with a cost and the game worked fine. While I think the old system was unnecessarily harsh on high SP players and needed change, I am less convinced removing it wholesale with no replacement was a good thing for this game. Death and meaningful loss is (was?) a key idea of this game from the get-go, and turning Eve into a standard shooter where you respawn with no penalty may not have been the best idea for the long term health of the game, and hasn’t, at least far as I can tell increased PvP activity as people claimed it would.

That said, I am not sure the OP’s idea is the best way to impose a cost on clone death, but I think it is something worth addressing, but given the path we seem to be stuck on, I am not optimistic those driving the boat are going to be interested in adding back some harshness lie thisto the game.

Wasn’t it a null sec thing? All those pods caught in bubbles. Making it so expensive for them to repeatedly update their clone. Pretty confident the csm lobbied for that change.

To be honest i wasn’t that fond of the mechanic anyways. Was happy to see it go. Death is not entirely meaningless without it. Your implants are still worth something, and that allows players to choose their level of risk/meaningfulness. Spend more on implants, get increased power and risk losing them, or forego the implants and forego the power too.

More meaningful death sounds like fun, but i can’t see why we’d benefit from restricting peoples game.

CCP didnt actually produced the numbers but I recall they did report an upswing.
There is also an upswing in destruction on the total destruction graph on the Mers. Despite slightly lower player numbers logged in. Which would also support it.

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