And I think this consequence, or ‘cost’ as you call it, is very tangible and is the reason HS behaviour is as it is today where almost nobody takes the opportunity to attack other players illegally except for career criminals, unlike other parts of space where people attack other players frequently whenever they have the chance.
The consequences/cost for doing illegal attacks in HS space are high enough that most of the players there are law-abiding citizens.
I would say this means the consequences are tangible and the design works well.
Again, a “consequence” of an action that you can just snip away with a part of the ISK you earn from that action isn’t a “consequence” any more. I begin to feel we have a language problem here. Maybe it’s on me, because I am not a native english speaker, but for me “costs” and “consequences” are two absolutely different things.
And ganking simply has no “consequences”, just costs. Like ammo for missionrunners or crystals for miners.
If ganking had “consequences”, then Gankers would have to face a different environment mechanics-wise than law-abiding citizens, like docking- or travel-restrictions, permanent pursuit from NPCs or a permanent outlaw status so they would be free to shoot on sight. THAT are consequences. Changes you would have to adapt your playstile to. But they don’t exist, they are just snipped away with money. And that is utterly stupid.
Yes, you can improve your security status at a cost, but that doesn’t mean the consequences aren’t there. It just means you can pay off the consequences with enough ISK.
Either way people do feel consequences when they illegally attack others in high security space, which keeps most of them law-abiding citizens.
Either they feel the consequences directly, or they feel the cost in their wallet which adds a lower bound to the profitability of illegal attacks, which again stops many illegal attacks of opportunity from happening.
They are just as meaningful as a consequence as a negative wallet on a drug smuggler of the old days. Your distinction about career criminals vs. wannabe ruffians is just as meaningless because drug smuggling is a career activity, not something you do willy-nilly.
A consequence in my books is something like low sec status or low faction standing that prevents you from doing what you want to do. For ganking, that’s not the case. For everyone else, these things are tangible.
Yes. Most people want to do other things in space than shoot people. You can’t run missions, trade (effectively), explore or roam around if you constantly engage in criminal activities. That’s why gankers do not do anything else but that. It’s their gameplay activity and none of the consequences you listed have any meaningful impact on them.
Meaningful consequences for gankers would be if they could not dock in NPC stations, for instance. Suddenly, they would be forced to use structures and there their assets and clones would be at risk that some disgruntled person actually hires competent mercs and destroys the structures. That would be a consequence with a tiny bit of impact compared to what you listed.
Please, if you break into my house and the police arrives, confiscates a hammer and a screwdriver and then lets you go… but you can keep all the jewelry, electronics, the car, the motorcycle, any cash, watches or other valuables you have found and the “worst” thing that happens is that they put you on a “naughty list” that you can erase by paying 20 bucks… would you call that "Oh yeah breaking into someones house has totally consequences that work very well as a deterrent, else much more people would break into houses!!!*. I sincerily hope not… But that is the status of ganking today.
EVE is a spaceship game that also includes a game of ‘cops and robbers’, where some people can repeatedly play robbers without ending in jail for the rest of their life.
So it looks like we agree!
The consequences for ganking are such that nobody but criminals engage in criminal activities, because the consequences are very tangible that people cannot “run missions, trade effecitvely, explore or roam” when they also engage in criminal activities.
To me your observation confirms that there definitely are consequences to ganking.
The consequences indeed also have less impact on those who already have optimised the criminal career, as criminal players won’t be able to use those characters for other activities in high sec. And by supplying new ships with other characters their criminal character can continue their gameplay of robber.
Sure, that sounds like a good additional consequence. This doesn’t mean the other consequences are not tangible, like you said they were.
Nobody ever said that should be the case. But nice stawman!
That would be the case if meaningful consequences would be in place. But they are not. I can gank all day long today as much as I want and then - snip - run missions, go minining, trade, haul stuff - as if nothing ever happened.
Thats exactly what is the point of this discussion, but you seem to miss it.
As far as I know running missions in your Marauder, hauling in your freighter or mining in your Orca is a pretty bad idea when multiple people and their buyers can at any time activate a kill right against you for the next 30 days.
Ganking has some pretty big consequences. If I were to play in HS I wouldn’t do it on the character that I also use for non-criminal activities there.
Yes. 99% of all people ganked either ignore the killright or make it public, so you can easily buy it off yourself and get rid of it.
If it is opened for a specific group only, you get a notification and just set the guys red and deal with them like with hostiles in every other space: avoid being caught. It’s a small minority however. And most won’t even find you, since they would need to use a locator agent first and then guess your online time as well and on top of that bring a crew that can actually kill you. Stay away from the usual routes and use a scout to travel in unarmed ships that are worth being attacked and you are mostly fine. So, the real “threat” of having a killright is mostly a slight inconvenience for someone who knows how to move through new eden and knows how to fight.
I’d agree tho that it looks pretty scary for the casual player who has little clue which options he has available. But in return: most of these guys wouldn’t gank anyway… I had multiple KR on me over the years and it never was even remotely a “problem”. The overwhelming majority of players in HS doesn’t even notice you have an active killright and mostly you are in warp before the few who do have made the decision to actually use it. I once did run a complete Epic Arc in HS in a Paladin with an active Killright and wasn’t even aware of it until I noticed some guys following me. Well, I “baited” them to use it and docked at the next best station. -_-
Yes, and most of them can be eliminated by using alts. If you roll your alts or use alpha accounts, you don’t even have to pay or grind for security status increase. So, yes - in theory there are consequences, in practice you can avoid them easily if you roll alts or use alpha accounts.
Using alts is a proper method used by many players to get the nessessary DPS or Alphla for ganking. And since those chars barely need any skills they are made quickly and don’t have any other purpose anyway.
Yes, they have to be omega, but they can totally ignore killrights and reach full efficiency with minimal effort. Another reason why HS piracy should get a complete overhaul. It should be a “way of life” for a fully developed character instead of an efficiency-trimmed minimal-alt.
Even if that were the case, we would still have unlimited alt accounts that we can use to conduct business in Jita, mining, mission running, or whatever. Having your main being permanently declared a criminal as a lifestyle wouldn’t change anything. It wouldn’t even remotely be an inconvenience…
That’s how it was for a long time. Until those Clone Soldier Tags were introduced. I don’t remember what the reasoning behind their introduction was, why they were needed.
