“The sad thing is that you don’t even know the game they killed for you.”
That last line is bittersweet. I invoke the unspoken, and oft times spoken, mantra of Eve: When you undock from a station, you consent to PvP. I didn’t always agree with this mantra, but I inherently and ultimately accepted the consequences of it. CCP has allowed themselves to compromise the integrity of what they created in order to engage in a cash grab. It may have added more people, but it has also diluted the essence of the game.
I think that’s the very definition of “Wild West”: group of baddies made a gang and rules the town.
Should it be something like civilized place policemen would come and clean it up. But they don’t.
At the end You are right: everyone learns that 99.99% someone is in “suspect” state this is a bait. Some learn it hard way (attacking suspect and getting killed by the whole gang including neutral bumpers and logistics), some learn it by watching others getting killed. But result is the same: “suspect” state in current meta means little more than bounty.
For example my alpha alt having “fun” killing mobile depots around Amarr. It makes you go “suspect” state. It feels a bit thrilling to sit blinking 50km off gates when any passing pilot can easily kill you (the girl has no skills and no money to buy stuff and flies destroyer she got from starting agent and some t1 fit she looted from NPC wrecks). But she was not attacked once for weeks already. I’m planning to try her hands on MTUs in some mission hub but it needs some skills to scan and DPS.
But as i said: nobody cares about alpha destroyer 50km off gates doing “shady” stuff.
This is what all these “hunters” did to EvE high-sec population with their baits, docking games, bumpers and neutral logistics.
I would say: this is complete win of villains. They have stomped any resistance.
This fear of fighting wasn’t like this until crimewatch and the retribution patch.
People didn’t become risk averse because they were beaten into it. They became risk averse because all of the “casual pvp” activities that would have familiarized them went away.
Today’s player doesn’t choose to avoid engagements because he was abused. He’s just never experienced pvp and doesn’t know anything about it.
In order to dismiss the points of someone you disagree with, you assume that the poster is new, hasn’t played much, is ignorant of EVE history etc.
I’ve played nearly every expansion since Trinity (late 2007 for those who aren’t aware of the ‘history’), subbed and unsubbed, run 18 characters, can Plex myself or not as I desire, have can-mined and can-flipped, PvP’d, PvE’d til I fell asleep, gotten excited about EVE to the point of obsession and gotten so bored with it that I quit for months or even a year… multiple times.
The points I made about miners goals are true for many miners, because I’ve been in mining corps and mining fleets and casual mining groups when they talked about it. I know what level of fights are typically encountered when ‘villains’ go can-flipping. Not the rosey recollections of a single pilot who is idealizing the experience, but actual been-there-done-that can flipping from both sides. It was, for the most part, combat-ready predators seeking out weak targets for easy kills or profit.
That’s entertaining for the predators, not so much for the prey. No matter how much you guys try to present that sort of unbalanced fight as ‘what Eve was always about’, it’s BS. As said, CCP can math, and they evened up the playing field to the point where all those ‘villains’ now have to accept a high amount of risk in order to get their jollies. CODE proves it can be done, if you are willing to pay the price. You guys just aren’t willing now that the price has gone up.
PS: Making assumptions about ‘my way’ of playing is another thing. Having some historical perspective of how games work over the long term and applying that to the current game has nothing to do with my preferred playstyle. It’s just accepting the way things are.
Not only that, but like I said above, we experience the exact opposite of being abused. We see ‘PvP’ as a casual fun game that perma yellow people play with each other outside trade hubs while the rest of the world happily sails by without a care in the world. It’s not just the absence of abuse, it’s the presence of an environment that actively encourages you to dismiss all notions of crime and danger and threat.
I assumed none of those things about you. I could argue however that you made some pretty gray assertions about me while I believe I’ve respectfully disagreed with you, nothing more.
I disagree with you about whether eliminating villainy from the game is good.
I think the Indy crowd needed interruptions from guys like me, whether they liked it or not.
Crime is already mostly gone. Is the game better today than it was in 2012?
I’m telling my opinion for all to read. You are doing the same. I thought the game was better when there was grounds for one player to steal from another… you don’t.
I think small corp wardecs (with some additional restraints) added to the game.
I think CCP will eventually want to make EvE gritty again… if it makes it long enough.
Yes, sorry, the message you are replying to was a ‘generic you’ responding to the 2-3 posters who made the ‘you are new, ignorant of the history, haven’t played much’ comments. (You’ll note the reply was not to you, specifically)
In fact, best to read any of my posts in this thread replacing ‘you’ with ‘people who enjoy the predation side of can-flipping-like activities’, as they were not necessarily directed at Mobadder.
I even agree with many earlier points made by the predator side (esp. Mo’s points about unlimited WarDecs being more of a problem, and having an escalating WarDec cost). Both sides have made good solid points here.
The viewpoint I am most clearly trying to elucidate is this: Going back 5 or 6 years I can recall literally dozens of “oh man I enjoy(ed) the can-flipping, tears of the miners” posts from the predator side. I can recall exactly one post from a can-miner saying he missed it, and 1 post from a can-miner who was also a can-baiter. Of course I didn’t read every post but the imbalance is pretty clear.
Whenever your chosen activity requires that you annoy other players who are trying to do something else into interacting with you, and there are more of them than you, you can safely assume that game mechanic will eventually get changed.
As one poster way back said, wishing to return to an imbalanced system won’t help. The best we can do is try to come up with ways to add future systems that will provide a similar level of excitement without requiring pi55ing in somebody else’s cornflakes.
In the timeless memes of eve past…post with your main. Otherwise I don’t actually believe any of that. This is actually my main.
I’m also not advocating we go back to the way things were as that would be silly and impossible. I’d like CCP to move forward with more new ways to interact in highsec, revamp wars, revamp crimewatch, do somethings to bring people back together in game. I remember a day when mission hubs were packed to the gills with people, smaller systems laid claim to by fledgling corporations, people mining everywhere (in all types of ships).
Highsec is the gateway into eve that everyone passes. I’d love to see it be vibrant and viable again. Not just another boring stop before getting herded into some newbro null farming group.
Yesterday some newbee pilot came to our WH to run relics. I’ve tried to kill him and failed, because i’m bad at it.
As you can see: fight happened while nobody tried to “injure or annoy someone”. I could easily ignore him and he was unaware of me watching him. Relics while provide rewards are not something i really care about.
This thread shows an utter prolonging of a simple issue into a small library worth of characters…this seem like textual diarrhea…I guess I coined that term.
Please read what you are saying and try to look at it from outside the perspective of your own personal amusement.
“I see someone who is engaging in a simple, low-conflict activity, like mining. That is his choice for this gaming session. I find his choice boring, so I want to injure, annoy, and provoke him, to the point where he is so driven by anger or hate to attempt retribution, even though I am a trained/skilled PvPer who is fit and ready for combat and he is a miner in a mining vessel.”
That is the summary of your statements in various parts of this thread. No matter how much you try to dress it up with “it could almost be a fair battle, sometimes”, your version of entertainment consists of ruining someone else’s day. It’s a power trip, and it depends on the other person being your victim.
Why do boxers fight? Why do sports teams strive to be the best? Why do athletes ‘leet’, and why do artists strive? If you don’t think all those activities involve willing participation between roughly equal opponents who feel all the same hate and anger and desire for retribution you speak of, I wonder what you think they are driven by.
Instead of that, you want to mug unarmed townsfolk in dark alleys. Sure, one of them might turn out to be a martial artist and hand your ass to you, but 9 times out of ten they are a harmless victim.
(Note: Please keep taking ‘you’ to mean ‘people who enjoy can-flipping-like activities from the aggressor side’, as these are not personal comments directly specifically at Mobadder.)
Your belief is irrelevant to my points, which stand on their own.
100% agree. I just think they need to do something truly innovative, not so much in the way of ‘all new coding’ but in crafting a situation where people choose to work together and interact because it is both time-effective and rewarding. I just don’t see ‘aggressor-victim’ setups as being that solution.
Pointless post that contributes nothing is pointless. If you don’t care to read discussions of the core mechanics of how to improve player interaction and satisfaction in Eve, then don’t.
Then obviously this game isn’t for can-flipping PvPers, since the OP started the post by saying “They ruined the game for me” in effect.
And the townspeople have hands, fists and teeth. That doesn’t mean much when the other guy is holding a gun. Use either some context, or rational thought. One of them should work.
You mean, like, ‘taking advantage of someone else, annoying them to provoke an anger response, and then slapping them down hard’ doesn’t happen in a video game? Feelings aren’t real because they were provoked by a game? I look all around the world and I see that people take their games very seriously.
OP was a criminal who used the mechanic to find PVP. The only ‘they’ he could actually be referring to is CCP.
First of all, I know plenty of people who are just as adept with their hands as they are with weaponry. You are only seeing the viewpoint of a helpless victim.
I am not denying people get real, negative feelings over this game. As I previously stated, if you let this game affect you outside of this science-fiction environment, then this isn’t the game for you. I am referring to your real-world analogies. This isn’t real life, it is EVE Online. Thus, those analogies are irrelevant.
If your ship/stuff/gametime does not worth your emotions then you won’t have “fun” in there.
Loss - this is what makes PvP meaningfull. You lost a ship and you feel pain. You made other person lose his ship and fell pain - you made your fun.
For example: imagine all of EvE players have free ships and stuff? Everyone can fly anything and fit it any way he wants. Lost the thing? No problem, here you are, take another one.
Will you still be there? Will you spend your time killing stuff when it does not mean anything to all parties involved?
Me, for sure, won’t. I rather play Counter-Strike at this point. Faster fun and better mechanics for it.
That would imply that CODE.'s form of PVP is meaningless because they don’t care if they die. Sometimes PVP is more about contribution to an objective/overarching meaning than the simple loss of a ship.
People will always find a meaning for PVP, even in your alternate reality of everything being free. If that happens, it just amplifies the meaningfulness of nullsec sovereignty. It becomes a giant 4X strategy game like Civilization, except alliances are trying to conquer space.
That is an interesting concept, but I suppose, in some ways, it is like that now, with the exception that EVE has a lot more depth and breadth.