Note from retired criminal

Communications Center Crime & Punishment
301

My major problem with this is really a perspective of it taken in aggregate.

While I think you are boiling 80% of the content out of my playstyle to make these assertions… I acknowledge I made people unhappy.

There were never a lot of senior players targeting noobs because it’s not that much fun… but new pvp’ers usually did target noobs because that is the only people they could beat. Most noobs didn’t know if they were fighting a competent player or not.

However,my point; 70% of the population lives exclusively in highsec. By your logic, ganking, wardecs, and flipping are all bad content that should b eliminated because they are unfair.

If eliminated all that remains is FarmVille. No, excuse me,FarmVille will actually have greater threats to face on a daily basis because sometimes the weather damages your farm.

The average highsec player will be a rabbit, left in a Field to eat until it dies of boredom.

This is what I see already… as I see corp after corp of highsec people who have never been wardecced and have clean killboards.

I will never be able to wrap my mind around what about that is a good game.

I feel sorry for the fox that used to chase the rabbit, but ultimately I feel sorry for the rabbit too.

302

They do it purely because of “tears”. Generated by people who cares.
And loot from victims ships.
And yes, they do not care about their own ships because these ships are expendable and dead as soon as ganking starts.

“Pure ideas” or “contrinution” dies right when target is “not worthy” (read: takes more ISK to kill than you could get off this kill).

“Alternate reality” is right there, next door. You know: Singularity is open 24/7 and has it’s market filled with almost any stuff you could need. You just can login and get all for “100 ISK” and PvP to your hearts content.

You would think that there is a lot of players having pvp all day. But it’s not.
They are here, logged to Tranquility, instead. Place where loss (and by proxy win) has meaning.

And you are wrong about meaningfulness of null-sec sovereignty. Its meaningfulness (damn, such a long word!) only comes from ability to make ISK in relative safety under supercarrier umbrella and intel-channel network. That’s why sov-0.0 space has more people in it than NPC-0.0 space or other places. That’s why CCP keeps higher rewards in there even if it screws with general economy. Because as history shows when 0.0 space loses it’s leadership in ISK/hour then people move to other spaces.

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That is the way it works now, which is why I noted that in my post. If you make it to a Tranquility state, the purpose of the PVP becomes solely based on owning territory. There would still be meaining for PVP, just without the depth and secondary/tertiary effects.

304

If you posted with your main, belief would not be required. Until then, I believe that you are less than a year in the game and bad at it.

So a game built on risk vs reward, you would rather just throw all that away and have happy sunshine fun time mining sim?

305

Believe what you like, makes no diff to me.

Will address this below.

(Plus all the rest of Mobadder’s reply there, which makes valid points)

I hear you on that, a high degree of safety leads to a high degree of boredom and a lot of repetitious grinding which turns Eve into just another grindfest for SP/ISK/loot… like virtually every other MMO out there, just more complex.

My point isn’t that it’s good, bad, immoral, whatever. My point is, if the ecosystem you envision involves having the few (predators) disturb/annoy/frustrate the many (grinders), then pressures arise which will push the game away from that equilibrium. In this case, more miners/grinders putting pressure on CCP to ‘even the playing field’ by giving them anti-can-flipper (or anti-ganker) tools.

That environment goes away as a result, and won’t come back.

Personally I do not feel that it is necessary to create an angry, frustrated person on the other end of the connection in order to experience risk or excitement. Certainly there are people who only feel enjoyment if they know their actions resulted in an angry, cursing, frustrated person on the other end.

Without getting into the relative ‘issues’ of people who feel either way, industry-wide gaming patterns show there are more ‘grinders’ out there than ‘predators’. Typically in a 70/30 ratio if not more. (In a mixed PvE/PvP environment.)

If your (generic you) personal enjoyment requires creating an upset victim, then we have nothing further to say to each other. If you can envision getting entertainment from a game mechanic where the other person is willing to engage you in a somewhat-equal contest, then it becomes a matter of imagining what that system would look like and selling CCP (and other players) on the idea.

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306

My favourite part of learning to play EvE was getting repeatedly wardecced by insanely well armed pirates left right and center. If you aren’t a total victim at heart it’s really just a game of pirates and treasure, whichever side you’re on can be fun.

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SI don’t login to be a cog in a machine or the ace number one grinder in caldari space.

I log in to be Captain Jack Sparrow.

I want to steal, extort, fight, and all manner of hijinks.

I’m personally empathetic to those I beat, but I don’t see how that matters. I don’t really enjoy tears, but some people do.

But I like playing a rough game and in that game there are losers and winners.

Some people throw the board game everywhere when they lose, or steal all the Monopoly money. Some hate their teammates or their opponents when they lose. Any player of games will create these affects in time by playing any game. The act of winning at anything invites these feelings.

I don’t see how I can be expected to be responsible for how people feel about me calling them on the risks they take and inciting a legitimate loss. Sure they don’t like it, but there are some who are good sports and some who are sore losers.

It’s when you make the game to where loss is either impossible or unlikely that you realize you’ve destroyed the “lows loss created” at the expense of the “highs that wins create”… that’s when you are no longer competing or, really playing a game.

It’s not about whether I’m nice or not, that’s irrelevant.

I honestly don’t prefer to fight miners. I actually vastly prefer to do the White Knight thing and fight flippers because they’re more fun. The problem is, they don’t exist anymore and haven’t for years.

The effort to prevent sore losers from crying about legitimate losses has eliminated the vast majority of “play” that used to go on in the area of space where the vast majority of players play.

All that’s left is bunnies eating in a field, and a bunny can only eat so much.

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309

I figure we have two options.

We can either fly a buffer fit projectile/missile boat with passive resists or dual cap boost.

Dual cap boost is usually easiest with an active armor tank.

Vamps are ok I guess, but I recommend neuts to drop the other guy’s cap faster.

Energy crisis solved. You’re welcome.
Mo

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311

Your jokes are an energy crisis.

313

OK I understand your thread of entire irrelevance is a waste of bytes…flag that too. I was just trying to be nice.

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I actually wasn’t aware that we could gank each other’s posts, but I’m happy with that.

I shall attempt to learn to do this. Clearly, this level of forum pvp is the next step for me.

On behalf of whoever ganked you shiptoasts, “calm down troll.”
Mo

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315

Give me a day or two to catch up, with all the material to cover. We will have some relevant discussions, unless you decide censoring yourself works. Unless it’s those little codie underlings who continue to harass me after a petition was sent.
If good humour is lost, which Mo apparently didn’t mind too much, we’ve lost to the trolls I believe. This is abviously a deliberate attempt at counting up my flags by an automated system or something?
I’m sure ccp staff are aware of this tactic, one would hope. I’ll add that to the petition. What intellectual discourse!

316

Ok. I only read the first 40 or so posts on this thread, but couldn’t stop getting irritated. I agree. I want more crime back. A lot of folks don’t remember all the way back. I miss the eco-system and all the layers there used to be. I miss targets in HS other than miners. I miss pulling security. I miss killing flippers. I miss defending flippers and killing the anti-flippers. I also miss mining with more of those elements always in the background. Even if it doesn’t go back to the ways they were, nor all the clutter of millions of cans everywhere (going back even further), having something that builds that eco-system (even if its tweaked for whatever reason) would be nice so it’s not so boring in HS. Like you, LS, NS, and WH are not quite the same as what HS used to be.

Also, I apologize if people came up with solutions or people started understanding you or whatever. I’ll finish reading all the posts, I just wanted to comment now.

And, I am not sure what mechanics need to change to bring some of those elements back, I just miss that old atmosphere.

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317

I’m finding some people have never experienced that kind of pvp in this game. A lot of them only know the bigger “wardec your alliance for our content” approach, like marmite, or the suicide ganker, or the CODE-like system or the pure griefer type. While those have their pluses and minuses, there is a missing element that used to filled, and used to help give more targets, outside of your “newer miner” types. PvP could be done solo or in really small teams in highsec, and there were other pvpers you could target. Their was a richer environment of solo griefers, new criminals (that weren’t griefers), even more experienced miners that should know better, that added that element. There were security teams that you could plan to get into an engagement with. Now it feels more industrialized, more organized, and the targets are only those larger organizations or miners.

Yes, some of it is still there, but it is not as rich as it was. It just feels more boring. I play on all sides, and I’ve tried a bit of everything, so I understand many different viewpoints. My daughter plays too, so I’ve revisited some of the “new player” experience, and I’ve left and returned quite a few times. Something is missing.

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318

OK, Please don’t flag my post, I’m being completely honest and getting a phobia of these forums within my few days, after a 10yr hiatus. Your comment about forum PvP was interesting but not of importance to the issue you speak of, or the substance to this thread.
I used to play eve solely for the purpose of can flipping, the retribution patch which still irks me as I lost many good friends. Not because a change of mechanics, it was a new game. The veneer was the same, but it wasn’t the game I had played for 4 years.
Many stayed but a lot quit over this specific change. This is synonymous with me losing interest and not having that fun thing to fall back on if you get bored of a new venture.
I remember when the Hek system which borders low-sec was the only hub viable for criminals and it gave out a lot of quality kills. It had 500-600 average when I was there when I played a long time ago. I nearly cried when I didn’t have to scroll through local last night…that’s what has changed for this retired person.

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319

You see it too and remember it like I do.

I miss there being shenanigans and I’m glad you are speaking to it too. Even for the non participant, there was always a show to watch and perils to avoid and think about.

CCP needs to hear this. I don’t think they know what they had or how truly unique and special it was.

Pre-retribution criminal pvp was the most sophisticated pvp I’ve seen in any game, ever.

If they had taken the time to understand the criminal element and had capitalized on it… they would have made gaming history. Instead, they streamlined the noob path to the worst parts of the game.

I’ve never experienced its equal… I want them to read what I saw and compare it with what we see now.

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320

Totally agree. That element was a lot of fun. Even if you didn’t participate. It was an elegant backdrop.

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321

High sec “celebrities” roamed the skies of New Eden. Now everyone’s wondering if they’ll get ganked while mining? What has this fictional galaxy come to??!! (flag worthy?)

Hence my original Princess Leia style post. (May the Force be with her)

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I had my first PVP experience (and quite a few more subsequently) when I ran my own mining/mission running corp - Then there were can flippers. We were usually ignoring the thieves, raging and laughing in corp chat at the loss, but that was the risk of can mining for efficiency’s sake.

Even survived a failed gank atempt using a Tempest while mining on my alt’s Hulk while actually hiding from a Wardec in a dead end system.

Then we fought back once or twice. That was great. Then I started can flipping myself using a combat Mammoth. Got some few kills myself, even refunded some newbros I blew up after chatting with them.

Then got recruited by a local flipper that also did Wardecs and hunted when there were War Targets actually online - Watchlisting magic. That was a time when Wardecs were a hard cap of 3 or 10, can’t quite remember, so it was limited, as we had to carefully select our Corp/Alliance before starting a War.

Great times were had.

CCP in wanting to streamline everything killed what I am the most nostalgic about and liked most about EVE: The thrill of Hisec criminality such as can flipping and wreck/can thieving and directed Wardecs where you could actually hunt targets.

Yes I am bitter and barely play a fraction of what I used to.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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It was 3 for corps and more for alliances. It cost a corp 10 mill a week for decs. Picking 3 ripe corporation to dec gave you plenty of content. You actually got to know your oopponents over the weeks and sometimes formed bonds lasting for yrs.
Unlike these blanky mercs

The beloved Dec Shield to shed wars that a friend and I stayed in for targets. Every system, red stars blotted out their respective sun.

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