Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

What is a loaded question? How might one give the impression of honest discourse while not actually interested at all in allowing it.

Thank you Arrendis for your outstanding question, also for providing two options for answers as I am a simple warmonger that would have had a hard time if say, I were presented with four possible answers.

I pick True.

P.S. Whats also cool, is I got a fifty percent chance of being correct!

By giving an answer like yours, obviously.

Then please, show other options. Either the mandate for the Reclaiming eventually has to apply to the Caldari, or it doesn’t.

Thank you again Arrendis for once again making the discussion easy for me and the audience to follow! You have cleverly and clearly broken down the entirety of politics between the empires over thousands of years into two possible options for me to choose.

Option 1 - The mandate for the Reclaiming eventually has to apply to the Caldari.

Option 2 - The mandate for the Reclaiming does not eventually have to apply to the Caldari.

I choose, uhm, Option 1! Gosh ain’t this great that everything is so black and white! Its like doing math!

And you have yet to show another option.

Hrm, try another true and false, I am good at true and false.

You know, when you start off with claims that my statements are

and then cast them as

but can’t actually offer a substantive response, you kind of draw attention to your own evasions and obfuscation.

So… got anything substantive on the issue of the Empire’s long-term intentions vis-a-vis controlling the Caldari, or just more smoke and whining?


You give this pedant too much credit by taking notice, Shakiel.


Mmh. Well, she does have a point, sir, but it’s not quite the one she thinks she has. Arrendis has a habit of looking at things in binary terms (“either it’s this or that”); ambiguity isn’t really her thing.

It’s very much mine, though.

The Imperial Rite does carry the requirement of seeking to reunite humanity in God’s service. This has traditionally been done through straightforward conquest, but that method got its wings clipped pretty sharply when the Amarr tried it on the Jove (Vak’Atioth).

While it’s popular (and in certain cases accurate) to question their motives, to the Amarr as a culture and faith this is a form of rescue: every soul, friend or foe, that remains outside the Rite through death is, quite simply, doomed, though whether to simple destruction or to some unpleasant afterlife seems to be a matter of a little debate. As a result, as a matter of simple mercy the Reclaiming should proceed as swiftly as it practically can … but the practicalities have gotten really sticky since the Empire found itself with peers.

Unable to simply roll over all opposition, the Empire’s been forced to learn pragmatism. (Though of course there’s always going to be someone spoiling for a fight. “Come on! We can take 'em!”)

The Imperial Rite, then, has actually a lot in common with the Federal notion of “human rights”: each empire has something to offer, something precious to offer all humanity (inherent rights recognized / grace of God recovered). But, “must” has met “can’t,” and what won’t work cannot be the correct path.

So basically Arrendis is just pointing out the obvious: the Empire is an outward-facing power seeking to spread its dominion and ideals. She talks about this as though it should make the State more suspicious of the Empire, but in practice the State has already taken measures to counter it (more rigidly than either the Republic or the Federation, in fact), since Amarrian religious practices are banned except for Khanid Kingdom expatriates (and even then it’s to be practiced only in private).

Yes, like the Gallente, they want to rescue us from ourselves. So what? We knew that already.

If I remember her angle correctly, Arrendis is one who feels the Caldari and Matari should make common cause, each nation abandoning its association with the Empire and Federation, respectively, and forming a third power block to resist all expansionist aggression from any quarter. My sense is that this is unworkable precisely because of what each people has in common: a lack of concern for outsiders and a lasting historic grudge against different outward-facing powers.

The Republic isn’t going to go to war with the Federation for a bunch of outsiders. Neither is the State going to “come for” anybody else’s people.

As it stands, each side’s more outward-facing “partner” has some not-so-quiet ulterior motives in the arrangement, but that’s neither a surprise nor much of a problem. The Amarr aren’t going to try an armed Reclaiming in the State any more than the Federation’s going to invade the Republic to impose democracy and ban voluval rituals, and both the Republic and State are well-prepared to fend off cultural attempts by their respective partners to influence them.

It’s maybe reason for a bit of inter-empire wariness but what else is new.

In other words Arrendis is pointing out that Triglavians like blue stars. The appropriate answer is something along the lines of, “Yes, we know that, thanks.”


As a point it is worth discussing. As an argument it is childish.

It is true - and also tautological. It is tedious because it requires far more ink to point out the sleight of hand in her conclusion than it does to write. Only an idiot could consider it a proof, and to argue with a fool is debasing.

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Except, of course, that I’m not the one who pointed it out. That was Amicia. All I did was essentially say ‘hey, you noticed!’ to Remilia, and then mock the twit who attempted to obfuscate it.

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I’ve never heard it put forth that the Gallente want to rescue you from yourselves. Generally we Gallente are perfectly fine with you living the way you choose to live and identifying however you want to identify as long as you aren’t infringing on the human rights and dignity of others in the process.

The notion of ‘imposing democracy’ is a bit oxymoronic, isn’t it? The idea that forcing someone to accept a form of governance they themselves haven’t chosen is anti-democratic from the outset. The Federation imposes democracy only so far as anyone wishing to join the Federation, a democratic union by design, must also adopt democracy. We don’t generally invade other territories by force and demand they submit to democracy.

Also, I won’t pretend to understand the Voluval but given that the Jin-Mei maintain a social caste system within the Federation, I’m not certain the Federation would ever plan to ban the practice.

Yeah, congratulations, that whole ‘human rights’ thing? That’s the Gallente trying to change everyone else.

If the Federation doesn’t invade other territories, why are State systems in the warzone?

But then, the whole point ignores the fact that the Federation did export parliamentary democracy to the Republic when it was formed. Just because the Federation uses soft power and cultural corrosion to expand its power and, as Aria puts it, ‘rescue us from ourselves’, rather than golden fleets and enslavement, doesn’t mean you’re not doing it.


Oh! So you are not the one that formulated the opinion, you were merely defending it!

I see where my misunderstanding stems from. I’ve never perceived it as an effort to ‘rescue you from yourselves,’ because that suggests (at least to me) that we assume fault in the individual for the atrocities imposed on them by others, which we don’t. Generally a person can do whatever they want to themselves and we’re going to have little say in the matter but we do take it upon ourselves to intervene on behalf of those who cannot represent or defend themselves from oppression, abuse or similar mistreatment by those with power or authority when and where possible.

If that’s a belief that you need to be rescued from yourselves then I suppose I simply misunderstand that terminology.

Because when CEMWPA was signed, all signatories were required to put forth systems for the ‘warzones’ at least as far as I can tell. It would have been completely farcical for some to put forth systems and others not to. I think we can both agree that the ‘agreement’ was hardly ideal to begin with.

For the record, I wasn’t saying the Federation never invades territory; I was saying we don’t invade territory with the intent of imposing democracy. At least not under ‘general’ circumstances.

The Republic is perfectly free to govern itself and redesign itself however it sees fit to do so, it’s not like we have agents ensuring a fair and democratic process in the Republic government or else! The fact is that the Minmatar chose to adopt a Parliamentary Republic government, we didn’t force them to do anything.

Now, if you’re implying that we’re guilty of ‘soft power’ expansionism because people find our ideals appealing then okay, I’ll accept that but I won’t apologize for it.

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In fairness he did say ‘Generally’ which to my ears implies there can be exceptions.

Also I don’t believe him. But if I did I think your objection has been addressed.

Then why sign it? The Federation had as much input into the structure of the agreement as anyone else. They and the Empire, after all, form the bulk of CONCORD’s funding.

We did, when Shakor came to power.

No, no, of course not. Fighting an active war for our survival against the Empire and needing Federal support to keep waging it, there certainly wasn’t any coercion involved, no ‘organize yourselves the way we want or maybe we cut off the arms supplies’ strongly hinted at. Couldn’t happen.

So, fun fact: the human brain seeks and sublimates patterns. Multiple studies have been done that have shown that even if you absolutely, 100% know a thing to be false, hearing it repeated over and over—no proof needed, no supporting evidence, just hearing the claim, like ‘Evi is secretly Tibus Heth’, put forth on numerous occassions—primes the brain to accept it as true.

It doesn’t even have to be something you’re focusing on. In fact, it’s more effective as background information that you’re not consciously noticing, because your critical faculties aren’t engaged in evaluating it.

So say there’s this massive polity out there that’s actively producing massive numbers of cultural exports—music, video, holodramas, novels, hell, commercials for soft drinks and about a billion other products. And all of this is going on in the background, everywhere, like those stupid Divinity Social ads on the station billboards.

At what point is it less accurate to say people found the messaging appealing, and more accurate to say they were conditioned to do so?


Do you have any proof of this or is this supposition?

A people with no history of democracy suddenly adopted a full-blown Federal-style parliamentary democracy. I guess they just thought of it all on their own, huh?


So it’s supposition, alright.

Thank you for the insight.

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