Okay I have a few lore Questions


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #21

Why Karin Midular did not have a backup clone is not explained in lore, and neither is the same for some other death stories. I personally assume, to be honest, that this is because backups were not intended to exist originally, and were made canon only because so much player RP already had them. And consequently core lore just tends to forget to account for them…


(Samira Kernher) #22

Beyond the expenses, which are high, I would assume most baseliners don’t have backup clones because they’re both not as used to it as capsuleers and in many cases probably don’t look at it as lightly as capsuleers do. It’s not exactly an easy decision to make to keep a clone on store.

And to add to what Elsebeth said, a backup clone is the product, having a blank clone on standby with a copy of your neural map saved to file ready to transfer over if needed. Keeping a backup means, if you die outside of the capsule, your loyal employees will dutifully restore a new you to life by using brain data you might have previously provided (which could be days, months, or years old, depending on how often a capsuleer chooses to save it).

Hard scans (or burn scan) and soft scans (or slow scan) are the methods. They are how you save your brain data so that it can be transferred to a clone. A hard scan flash fries your brain, and is always fatal. Their purpose is picture perfect replication in microseconds, useful in the kinds of rapid-onset-of-death situations capsuleers often find themselves in. A soft scan (which again, is not canon but commonly RPed) on the other hand involves sitting under a scanner in a lab for a few hours as your brain data is delicately and harmlessly saved to file to be used at a later date. Soft scans are useless for capsules and other emergencies, but nice for making backups.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #23

This works for explaining it away a lot of people.

I am unconvinced it works for heads of state, corporate CEOs, etc.


(Teinyhr) #24

Jamyl wasn’t supposed to have cloned in the first place (godflesh) and explaining it the third time as another divine miracle would have strained the Amarrian belief system to its pitiful meatbag maximum.

As for Otro Gariushi, dude was a terrible planner, having all of his clones in a single station. Which then blew up. Woops.

As for Karin Midular - I’ve understood Minmatar generally aren’t big on cloning, and her being the Ray of Matar might’ve had some similar spiritual reasoning behind it as in the case of Jamyl.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #25

Citation needed?


(Teinyhr) #26

There isn’t one. Just something I’ve picked up and probably mixed from several sources in my head. By “aren’t big on cloning” I don’t mean btw it doesn’t exist, just that in my headcanon it’s not as prevalent, especially among non-capsuleers, than in the other empires, and that is mostly for variety of reasons, mainly cultural/spiritual - pseudo-immortality could perhaps be seen as intruding on the realm of the Elders by some.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #27

For the record, I’ve never had that impression.


(Teinyhr) #28

:man_shrugging: Well, anyway, in the case of Midular there certainly in my opinion could be the reasoning behind it that she was one of a kind and in a cultural sense it could tarnish the idea of this uniqueness for such a person to clone themselves. If you catch my drift.


(Melisma Ramijozana) #29

I did, mostly due to this and this (particularly the last section).


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #30

I don’t read that as cloning being a problem, or shunned, or not as widely practiced as elsewhere. I read it as it being a normal practice, and now also (for some/many) incorporated in the spiritual life of the tribe, further making it normalized.

(Same belief ref on the fiction portal.)


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #31

There are at least five very plausible explanations why not backup clones I can think of in as many minutes. Problem is not explanations are not possible, problem is we don’t know which ones of those (if any) are true. And most of them being true would have implications - be the reason technical, spiritual, legal, sabotage, that would matter to others.


(Teinyhr) #32

And? At no point did I say my ideas are canon or presented them as such.


(Bjorn Tyrson) #33

in regards to Midular specifically, as far as i’m aware none of the lore actually mentions her being a capsuleer. all we really know about her past was that she was a researcher prior to becoming a politician, and while she was in part responsible for some tech breakthroughs they where made on behalf of the republic, which isn’t the most lucrative of endeavors.
She was also head of state true, and that likely would have given her access to capsuleer tech, but we also know that capsuleers are still viewed with a lot of distrust and are seen as warmongers by the general populace, There are several gallente politicians who are explicitely said to have turned down the opportunity to become capsuleers on moral grounds. and the amarrians have some… convoluted. rules around it.
With her highly pro-peace politics, I could see why she might refuse becoming a capsuleer based on the politics alone. and with the massive price tag of a solid state clone, she simply may not have been able to afford one on her salary. (Yes much of her cabinet was executed by shakurs mobs for supposed corruption, but she herself was vocally anti-corruption. even if she was on the take it would look rather suspicious for her to have a solid state clone)
All of that provides some perfectly plausible reasons for why she might not have had a backup. Even if she wasn’t as squeeky clean as she pretended, having one would shatter the illusion.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #34

Melisma referred to those sources. :slight_smile:


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #35

Yes. Like I said, there are plenty plausible, possible reasons. The fact that she is dead is not a concern. (I mean, out-of-character, as a player, my argument is not that she should not have died. Her death is a great story.)

The problem is that all explanations have implications for other stories, so knowing which one it is would be nice. And as there are other stories where major NPC characters die, and no mention of backups, and pretty much no stories where someone major is killed but no worries there was a backup, there certainly is something about them that explains it.

And again, players can invent possible reasons. I can too. But we can’t take the implications of those reasons as facts in the shared universe if those possible explanations are not CCP prime fiction.

Also note that cloning technology existed and was in limited use before capsuleers. You do not have to be a capsuleer to be cloned, though it sure helps.


(Nevyn Auscent) #36

The Empires have budgets that make capsuleer wealth look like nothing. Ignore the super old 1 isk is a fortune thing. Look at the bill for rebuilding Myrska, and compare it to the cost in USD to build something like Tokyo after a Godzilla attack… because people have calculated the later one. It’s pretty much 1 to 1 given Myrskas larger size.
(we are still filthy rich, I mean we measure incomes in millions per hour).
So a head of state having a soft clone would be hardly a drop in the bucket.

The other reasons of religious or even personal ones might apply though. They were good reasons.

I’m curious to know what other major NPCs have died and no mention at all of clones. Even some of the mission npcs get mention of having clones.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #37

No mentions of backups.

Maybe “major” is an exaggeration, but here are, for example, some mentions of important people dying without mention of why no backup. This is not a comprehensive list, just from the top of my head. You can probably easily find a lot more, because pretty much every time a story NPC dies because the plots needs them to die, the issue of clones and backups is ignored in the news. :wink:

And again I don’t have a problem with them dying. These are good stories. I am uncomfortable with the fact that lore seems to say backups exist, and that cloning does exist outside of the pod for the wealthy and important, but there is no canonical explanation for why the wealthy and important still keep dying. :stuck_out_tongue:

https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/breaking-news-body-of-key-scientist-found-after-ransack-of-labs-at-kyonoke-inquest-center/ (Key scientist in a critical investigation)

https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/dozens-believed-dead-as-explosion-rocks-egbonbet-station/ (A consulate member)

https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/republic-claims-responsibility-for-rebel-leaders-death/ (Rebel leader Karishal Muritor - also no mention of clones at all, despite the person being a capsuleer. Most people assume, of course, that since it was basically an execution the clones were either disabled, or he was in fact cloned and immediately taken into custody and it hushed up. But again, no mention.)


(Nevyn Auscent) #38

Maybe a good thread to point ISD towards? As they write a lot some of the news from what I understand?


(Samira Kernher) #39

There was this and stuff from Frigates of EVE.

The SCC also makes available life insurance and financing of static backup clones for space crews on highly favorable terms.

-Article

Today many public figures, politicians, actors, heads of state, and other celebrities have the option to effectively insure their lives with an almost criminally expensive cloning contract that enables them to safeguard their future.

Similarly, most military personnel who serve as crew onboard vessels belonging to the various navies of New Eden are mandated to fly with a basic clone that is backed up every three months at the end of their service rotation. This means that if they are killed in the field, they lose a maximum of three months’ memory and training, and can be redeployed into service as soon as they have been assigned to a replacement vessel.

-Frigates of EVE

So it is certainly in use in some places. But why it hasn’t really come up in the news for the deaths of major figures (beyond various special reasons why they couldn’t clone, like Heth’s disease, Gariushi’s having all his clones in one station, and Sacred Flesh for Amarr), I don’t know.


Crew salary?
EVE Lore FAQ: clones, poddings, crew deaths and backups
(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #40

Thanks for those references, good stuff.

And yea, they further confirm backup clones are business as usual - except when they are conveniently ignored because in the story someone important needs to die. (Yo @ISD_Thalack_Dalhar, it was suggested above we ping you guys for this.)

Also, doesn’t this mean the great crew / escape pod debate is finally over? Everyone has a backup clone and that’s that?

(It would be kind of convenient if this info was in the main articles about cloning tech, and not in bits and pieces all over the place. #bittervet )