Orbiting and tracking


(Nospais Hereboss) #1

When you orbit a target one side of your ship is always facing the target, so the gun doesn’t need to rotate around its axis… since this is true, why does my own orbit speed effect the quality of my hits?

If I stand still I land many good hits, if I orbit with speed then I can see most hits missing, it is apparent then that transversal velocity effects tracking of the gunner equally as much as the target.
Transversal is a major component of the tracking formula https://wiki.agony-unleashed.com/index.php/Tracking

Is it just me or is this a bit silly, like I said, one side of ship faces target during orbit, gun doesn’t need to turn to track the target.

Basically what this means to me is that if I speed tank then I gimp my own damage.


(mkint) #2

Troll thread detected?


(Nospais Hereboss) #3

what, why should this be a troll thread?


(mkint) #4

Because you already have the tracking formula, and apparently understand it… What else do you want?


(Nospais Hereboss) #5

ok, pretend I’m a newb, I don’t understand why or if orbiting around a target makes the target harder to hit since the gun is fixed to the ship and the face of side of the ship if always facing the target during orbit.


(mkint) #6

Ok, so I guess the basics. Dogma is what the physics engine is called. For reasons that have remained relevant for all these years it’s designed to be super simple. In Dogma, ships do not have a facing, they are abstract spheres. What you see in the client is a lie. It renders a facing on the model based on direction of movement, but that facing has no affect on things like acceleration or shooting. Tracking is based on the idea that a gun would have to pivot to follow the target. Angular velocity is the metric you’re looking for here, not transversal. Transversal is probably one of the least useful metrics available.

So reasons: 1) it’s the simplest way to calculate for chaotic server situations. 2) it’s effective gameplay.


(Nospais Hereboss) #7

thankyou for that reply, the ships being abstract spheres makes complete sense, I guess it may be outdated but it does work and at least we can learn about it.

this has made me realise what it is about artillery cannons that could make them more powerful (than autos) in pvp, just don’t get tackled haha

I’m researching this because I am about to build my first t3, trying to decide on loki artillery or autocannons fit.
with the auto’s fit I would depend on speed tanking with an afterburner at closest optimal range where I will always be affected by transversal. essentially if I want to increase my damage then I will be increasing their damage on me at the same time.

With an artillery fit kiting at range the target will always be either
a) standing still so therefor easy to hit
b) running away or trying to catch me, in which case if I just keep at range with slight adjustments I can keep the transversal quite low

the dps between autocannons and artillery isn’t that big, but artillery has very slow rate of fire so if you time it right you can make your transversal adjustments before each volley


(mkint) #8

You really don’t want your learning ship to be a T3. Or really to be anything other than T1. Frigates are especially useful for experimenting with tracking and fine tuning your tactics. If you can’t speed tank in a frigate, you probably won’t be able to do it that well in something slower. A frigate will get in and out of orbit easier, but will be more likely to die if you screw up. PVE situations are especially useful for getting a feel for tracking because of an abundance of targets.


(Nospais Hereboss) #9

I have been playing since 2007 but actually pretty new to projectiles, almost exclusively stuck with missiles and drones.
This is the first time I have sat down and actually looked at the formula and started to think about it hence I just found that discrepancy with the orbit mechanic and lightbulb moment about about ranged turrets vs short ranged.
Yeh I was planning on just hitting up some 0.1 ratting for awhile first.


(Mr Lopez) #10

It took me a lil bit to accept the tracking system in eve as well. If you used sentry drones they basically are deploy-able gun turrets and the same rules for tracking apply to both if that helps.


(Memphis Baas) #11

If it helps, imagine two planets orbiting each other, instead of two ships.

Uranus is tilted sideways; imagine two of these orbiting each other horizontally, and you’ll see how the server physics calculate your guns “tracking”

The engines on your ship and the turning around like a submarine circling an iceberg are an illusion to make the game “feel” more “realistic.”


(Alua Oresson) #12

@Nospais_Hereboss You normally won’t find yourself right at optimal with an autocannon fit. They like to play in falloff. This is why Barrage ammo is so popular.
(Someone correct me if this has changed)


(Nospais Hereboss) #13

afterburner fit brawler stabbers, vagas, are a thing now


(Alua Oresson) #14

In that case why not use a thorax or Deimos?

Who knew slow vagas would be a thing. I thought they came with a MWD and nanos.


(Nospais Hereboss) #15

mwd eats up cap and can be turned off by scrams and vaga has bonus to shield boosters now so they don’t have to kite
100mn or 10mn AB, large SB, large cap battery, NOS, play in scram range


(Alua Oresson) #16

Today I learned.


(Salvos Rhoska) #17

Correct.

The faster you go in any direction either directly away or towards your target, the worse your tracking is. This ontop of how fast they are going in any direction not directly towards or away from you.

Range is the saving grace, as it reduces the ratio of oblique angle to target.

Ergo, artillery ships are kiting vessels, and best flown at maximum optimum flying directly away from or towards your targets current trajectory.

Ergo, AC gimps itself the faster you fly on tight orbits, especially on fast targets.

Ergo, projectiles pretty much suck.


(Nospais Hereboss) #18

I’m starting to feel this way to be honest and I’m not seeing them around all that much these days

I’m flying solo and keep getting out done…
lost a cyna to a deimos who had an officer srcam
just lost another cyna to a rapier who was tanking my artys… I was getting in hits of 800-900 and a wrecking shot of 1111, no grazes but he just pop his shield to full in what looked like one cycle and wore me down… he had a bhaalgorn with him so that didn’t help lol but what surprised me was the rapiers ability to face tank me… unless the bhaalghorn could be remote repping from 45km away?

A lot has changed since I have been on break, keep getting new surprises, never seen a rapier face tank that much damage before.


(Nospais Hereboss) #19

what doesn’t suck in the meta anymore and what would you recommend if I stuck with minmatar?
is the fall off range kiting style the way to go then? I have already invested so much in gunnery and minmatar ships, my character only has 21mil sp, sold my main years ago, definitely missing missiles


(Salvos Rhoska) #20

Missiles are the best way out of the minmatar projectile trap, imo, and stack best with what you can use as a minmatar specialist.

Loki turned into something of a missile monster recently.