I am not the person you are addressing, but as a games industry veteran, I can tell you that there is absolutely no reason to believe that democracy makes for good games, and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. It is very important for game designers to listen to players, but then interpret what they are saying carefully to make design decisions.
A good example of this is “balance”. Players call loudly and repeatedly for balance, but good game design uses Perfect Imbalance, where balance is rotated to challenge players to develop the metagame. Back when WoW was at its peak (and long before the Perfect Imbalance video) WoW’s chief designer told me that they used this principle, and that they interpreted quite a lot of crying on the forums about balance changes as a good sign. It meant players were being challenged.
An example of where this has gone wrong on MMOs is when players have complained that it takes a long time to level alts, and the game responds by making the levelling process easier and more boring, instead of making it more challenging and interesting so that people enjoy doing it. That’s a move that would appear to be in direct opposition to democratic wishes.
I have spent a lot of time trying to interpret the dynamics of Eve’s design and its community. From my limited and biased perspective, it seems to me that a lot of players are conflating in-game goals with game design goals. This is common across MMOs. A very simple example: The game encourages you to make ISK. Players will lobby and vote for changes that get them more ISK. There are many varieties of this knot. It is a huge mistake to listen.
One thing that makes Eve greater than other MMOs is that it has a vociferous, articulate community who are metagaming on many levels. The game encourages this. I think it’s marvellous. But very dangerous when mixed with “democratic game design”.
tl;dr Game design is hard. Experienced professional game designers do it better than player hiveminds.
Interesting to know, thanks for confirmation of such cases.
Though i’m already a bit used to a forums with very mature users, thanks to one dedicated to a pretty old/abandoned 3d software, and perhaps musician/synth circles as well.
Just as a matter of fact, I have lost 11 friends in 4 years to wardec griefing in game and not one to boredom.
Personally I am just along for the ride in EVE. I love to watch as the stories unfold. CCP gets my paid subscription yearly as a thank you for letting me be a part of this incredible game.
I did lost lots of friends too… They lost the habitat they thrive… then they left… They were all fighters… some of the best solo skirmish pilots… theory crafters. AT pilots. … All happened after some spesific releases were behalf of the farmers … i lost them one after another … over years
this games balance tipped over behalf of farmers long time ago… CCP aware about the issue… but still not aware about how they are feeding it …
Why does the title of this thread remind me of “Cultural Learnings of (redacted) for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of (redacted)”. Is Borat now working in Iceland ?
Ask him if the data on wardecs conclusively show that they caused players to quit the game and how many did so. Whether I’m right or wrong, I eagerly await the answer.
I asked you to provide evidence that players were quitting because of wardecs. Like I said, I eagerly await Goodfella’s reveal of how many players did so.
It was a joke. The last I knew, the avg age of the player base was 40. Also a lot more females play the game than most others. But I have lost track of that post/info.
I just wanted to point out that EVE is, or a least was a niche game.
Ideally, they should be considering what types of gameplay and social structures (corps, alliances) maximize unscripted social interactions between players, what causes them to get invested in what they’re doing, fight, ally with each other, etc. Then they should think about how to direct new players into those types of interactive gameplay and corps. I have some ideas as to what this gameplay might look like, but the most important thing is for CCP to ask the right questions.
Bored players quit silently. They don’t announce they’re leaving to their corpmates or make a thread in the forums or on Reddit, they just disappear. Whether they become bored out of frustration with learning the game or feeling directionless or some other reason, I’m willing to bet that they make up a majority of people who quit.
Scandalous! Outrageous! We’ve got an Agegate conspiracy going on over here! I can’t be caught dead playing pew-pew with all you old farts!
The only thing that could top this is if it was revealed that @Mike_Azariah’s secretly manifested his evil alter ego in the form of @Nicolai_Serkanner…
You can understand something as basic as that, because newsflash CCP and the players have realized that we have to do that for easily more than 4 years now, you have not come up with anything new here.
But for some reasons you are incapable of understanding something as basic as the toxic role High-Sec wardecs had in the community.
I guess you are some kind of robot, as long as you are not provided with some specific numbers you are incapable of grasping anything. Even a child would grasp the level of nuance we are talking about here.
You are not even able to grasp the answers CCP have come up with, you think they just decided to nerf Wardecs because they felt like it? You refuse to accept the evidences and reasoning people on the CSM and who talked to the devs are telling you and somehow you have an idea of what kind of gameplay changes are needed by the game…
Allow me to doubt the usefulness of your ideas. You seem exactly like bluelysian, trying to solve a problem that is only yours, not the game’s.
Toxicity is relative. Now we have useless humongous, war dec immune alliances and null sec block feeder corps, which I personally find a lot more toxic than some small corps having had trouble in the past. These new things exist to funnel people into grinders without putting much effort into them. Instead of helping your feeder corp in a war to make them stay and feel relevant, and to show them that they matter for the main alliance, CCP just removed wars from these corps because no-one could be bothered with socializing and working with the noobs they want for their tax farms.
And in the process it was made much harder to keep humongous groups like TEST, Goons, Panfam under permanent, continuous war decs to introduce a slight element of risk to their activities in high sec. All the while war dec groups can still go for the easy targets who have dared to setup a structure for their small group, while bigger groups can just blob the attackers to death. So much less toxicity here, it’s amazing.
IT doesnt have to be democratic . And it may cause some people leave just after join. but not Every player profile suitable for EvE Online… and Eve not kind of game suitable for every player .
Eve Online is a Sandbox game. In sandbox games after set up main frame and parameters, Developers minimal interference is essential to keep eco-system in natural balance … and can be require some interferences to keep this eco-system working healty esp. if these are result of prior interferences … But the issue is there is a risk always to breake something even more while trying to repair it… and all go into a endless circle …SO as a strategy best option can be create awareness within community and encourage them for take steps for possible solutions …
