Questions about industrial ships and warp mechanisms

[Strepan_Dorsett]

o/ all,

Asking questions around, i found different answers so let’s try the forum !

Cloak + mwd trick :

The mwd part of the mwd trick is to make you warp faster because once the mwd cycles out, you reaches the threshold % speed needed to warp without prop mod on.

That said, how reaching warp threshold and align time work together ? Until now i found two types of answers :

• Those who say that you need your ship to have an align time inferior to the MWD cycle ( 10s). Because otherwise if you are not aligned, you don’t warp immediately even if you reached the right speed. Those people advocate for a agility fit Mastodon to make cloack + mwd trick work.

• Those who say that the mwd trick make any align time irrelevant. You can have a fat armor tanked impel and it will warp in 10s ( MWD cycle time) no matter what’s its agility.

What is the right answer ?

To complicate the matter further, some people say that when exiting a gate you have zero speed and your ship aligning is theretofore pure visual effect because your ship has no speed yet ( contrary to exiting a station or citadel) so in a way your ship is already in the right direction.

Fenrir vs Providence :

In the same way, i read a lot of people saying that a webbing alt makes any agility stat irrelevant on a freighter. Doesn’t matter if the Fenrir has a better align time, a webbing alt will make this thing irrelevant.

Is that true ? Does it mean that the obelisk is the best freighter ( for tank) or the Charon ( for cargo) and that the stats about agility are useless ( exit the Fenrir) ?

In the same way does it make the nomad implants useless ( implants increasing agility) and should i just go for ascendancy ( warp speed) or slave ( tank) implants ?

Higgs Anchor and max velocity :

In game, there is no stat making a difference between the time to align proper and the time needed to reach warp speed. Or is it ? This rig increases a lot agility at the cost of mass and max velocity.

Is the reduced max velocity helpful to warp faster ? Some people say no but at the same time isn’t it the very logic of the webbing alt ? To reduce max velocity to make it easier to reach the threshold by lowering it ?

In the same way is it good NOT to train to reduce the drawback of the Trimark Armor Pump rig ? It has a drawback to reduce max velocity so in a way, it should work as webbing alt, no ?

Thanks a lot for your help and your answers,

[QuakeGod]

Can’t help you with any of that, but I can tell you that you’re still going to get bumped and ganked anyway if we see you hauling around 30 billion ISK worth of crap at once…

[eXeler0n]

When you jump through a gate, the direction and therefore the aligntime are not considered.
You just need the right speed. That’s the cause why you can be webbed into warp.

So for gatejumps - just get the right speed is necessary and this can be done with MWD trick.

So yes, after jump your ship points always into the right direction, but visuals can alter. That’s the cause why your freighter can go sideways into warp.

For the web: it’s not that easy. In reality there is no difference with the right webber.
But if you webber is bad, then it’s better if you ship accelerates faster. The acceleration also depends on agility (not sure about this).

Therefore the max velocity of your ship isn’t important. Important is the acceleration. And this isn’t linked to max velocity. If you need 10s to full speed, it’s not important if full speed is 90m/s or 900 m/s.

[eXeler0n]

Added some more text to my post.

[Black_Pedro]

@Strepan_Dorsett

That said, how reaching warp threshold and align time work together ? Until now i found two types of answers :

• Those who say that you need your ship to have an align time inferior to the MWD cycle ( 10s). Because otherwise if you are not aligned, you don’t warp immediately even if you reached the right speed. Those people advocate for a agility fit Mastodon to make cloack + mwd trick work.
• Those who say that the mwd trick make any align time irrelevant. You can have a fat armor tanked impel and it will warp in 10s ( MWD cycle time) no matter what’s its agility.

What is the right answer ?

Both. Well, more the second, but the first would apply if you have any velocity.

If you are starting from motionless, your align time is irrelevant as you immediately start aligning in the correct direction when you initiate warp. Your ship model may not reflect that, but you are modelled as velocity vector, and therefore with no outside influence you will immediately start travelling in the direction and be aligned to warp when starting from zero. This is why freighters can often be made to enter warp sideways one server tick after they start aligning with enough webs, and even a slow aligning ship will enter warp after 10s with a MWD being cycled.

If you are undocking from a station (which kicks you out with some velocity), or have some existing velocity for some other reason, then your align-time does matter. In fact, the physics engine does strange things on undocking it seems to me, but given you should mostly be using insta-undock bookmarks, it isn’t so much an issue. But there, align-time does matter.

@Strepan_Dorsett

Is that true ? Does it mean that the obelisk is the best freighter ( for tank) or the Charon ( for cargo) and that the stats about agility are useless ( exit the Fenrir) ?

In the same way does it make the nomad implants useless ( implants increasing agility) and should i just go for ascendancy ( warp speed) or slave ( tank) implants ?

If you web properly, your freighter will be in warp in a couple server ticks, and your agility doesn’t matter. Therefore, if you 100% only ever fly with a webbing escort, then agility doesn’t matter at all, and you should focus on tank or warp speed.

Of course, you may actually want to fly your freighter without a webber on occasion. The risk of being ganked, outside a couple systems, if you keep your cargo small is vastly over stated. But that wasn’t your question: webs mean align-time on a freighter is useless.

@Strepan_Dorsett

Is the reduced max velocity helpful to warp faster ? Some people say no but at the same time isn’t it the very logic of the webbing alt ? To reduce max velocity to make it easier to reach the threshold by lowering it ?

In the same way is it good NOT to train to reduce the drawback of the Trimark Armor Pump rig ? It has a drawback to reduce max velocity so in a way, it should work as webbing alt, no ?

Both these rigs effect your acceleration as well as your max velocity. As @eXeler0n pointed out, it is your time to get to 75% speed, so lowering your max velocity doesn’t help at all. The webbing works as it lowers the max velocity while you already have speed, thus in effect raising you above the 75% threshold and putting you into warp. These rigs, slow down your acceleration as well so they don’t help.

Well, I can think of only two situation where they would help. The first would be if you applied a rig while you had speed. I can’t be sure this would work, but if you somehow had some speed, and refit and put on a rig, it should drop the 75% threshold below your existing speed and put you into warp. The second, is more realistic, and would be if you are being bumped. Perhaps not for the Higgs as it also increases your mass, but if you had the armour rig on, someone would have an easier time bumping you into warp because the speed transferred by the collision wouldn’t be affected by the rig, yet the rig would lower the 75% warp threshold.

I don’t think there is any rig or module that influences acceleration but not max velocity permanently - the two are linked. So the only way is with temporary effects like prop mods or webs. Perhaps I am forgetting something though.