Just thinking out loud on this one but how about a different, lesser type of seige module that only effects the guns on a dread? maybe half the added dps a normal siege mod would do but doesnt effect movement, ewar, tank and so on?
Thinking with the proliferation of caps at the moment perhaps some more variety in tactics and fittings might go a long way in making cap warfare a little more interesting?
Im looking at ranged dread weapons, why theyre not really used etc and how dreads are used (typically dread bombs) this is of course mostly null and lowsec when used enmasse. not in the low numbers you tend to see them in wormholes.
Not sure it’s justified.
Dreads should just get their niche back.
They’re supposed to be heavy hitters. They’re supposed to be cap killers. Citadel killers. The idea that they need to “divert all power” fits very well.
These days, the only reason to use a dread is when you know it’s a suicide drop and you want to inflict more damage than the value of your fleet, because you’ll probably lose at best a large portion of it.
- Remove HAW (support them with carriers, you fucking scrubs)
- Implement the “T3D mechanics” where they can choose either offensive mode or defensive mode… offensive mode the power goes to the guns and they get their dps boost. Defensive, it goes to their tank.
- Increase active tank and buffer in defensive mode, such that they can tank 2-3 dreads at a time
Moving dreads would be fairly simple. Just remove the speed penalty on siege. And would fit with the idea of moving around on grid while still disabling warp enabling tactics while still forcing commitment.
With how small grids used to be it wasn’t a real issue that dreads etc didnt move.
And there used to be a technical limitation that you couldn’t apply points while they were in siege, so if they could align they would warp before you could apply tackle. That limitation is removed and you can apply tackle now regardless and even apply webs without them having resistance if ccp want.
So there is no technical or gameplay reason it couldn’t be done.
Given how fast they (don’t) move, I’m not sure their sublight mobility would do more than help them spread out a bit to mitigate bouncing. It certainly wouldn’t have any relevance in a 5000km grid. Capital mobility almost invariably involves bouncing off pings/tethers once they’ve jumped into the target system. A close plan B is to jump out and jump back to a new cyno.
With an MWD I’m sure they COULD move, but it would still be painful and I have a hard time visualizing a set of circumstances where you could use that to create or maintain an advantage.
Point in case, carriers. If you need to move, say because you’re bubbled, you don’t try to burn out of the bubbles, you just refit SBs and blap the bubbles so you can warp off. If dreads jump on you, you’re not gonna burn out in time even if you had an MWD.
I’m not saying it has zero value, I’m just saying that the value approaches zero (becoming even less relevant when you increase grid size, not more relevant).
Tbvh ive been looking at comps that have carriers for antifighter duty, fax (which are immobile when in triage) and long range dreads in order to stay out of ‘blap’ range; i mean its still open to getting f******d but as a counter to a counter drop, when you have all the enemy dreads on field and bubbled… but its still iffy, most dont like the idea.
I would like to see more mobility or viable tactical solutions/comps to capitals if only because now practically everyone has one and it seems a bit… i dont know the wording… lacklustre to have them so… rigid?
Either way you look at it if you drop fax your fleet is pretty relegated on movement.
A worthwhile goal. The tactics of dreads are pretty simplistic at the moment… “drop at zero and blap them faster than they blap you”. Yay…
That said, the goal of increasing tactical strategy with capitals is kind of… doomed, I guess? They’re inherently slow. Even caps that don’t have to siege will never gain any significant strategic advantage through sublight mobility. This would be true for mobile dreads as well.
As a counter-drop, LR dreads have their role already. They can hit the hostile caps from well outside of their optimal (barring carriers ofc), and it’s fish in a barrel as long as you keep them bubbled. Properly supported, they’ll undoubtedly win if they drop outside of the brawling dread range.
The trick for capitals in general is to give them things that don’t rely on mobility… because they’re slow as ■■■■ at the best of times. In terms of tactics, if you want to increase the options, I’d say you’re best off giving their niche back to them, so that each capital plays an important role supporting other caps against other caps.
That way, tactics revolve around making sure your dreads are doing “their thing” effectively, whilst trying to ensure their dreads aren’t. LR guns for example, ensure you can stay out of range of SR guns. Both fleets supported, one built for brawling one built for range, if the LR are at range, they’ll win.
The other thing to consider is that capital fleets should always need to be supported by subcaps. A lot more of the desired strategy you’re looking for exists within the subcaps. We of course need to ensure that caps need support (they certainly benefit from support now, but honestly, they could due to benefit from it more).
Capital fights tend to be longer affairs, and Dreads don’t move that much slower than battleships. (Ignoring the mach because the Mach breaks most BS rules)
When it comes to positioning around a structure differences of 50-100km can matter, and while they sure couldn’t do that instantly they certainly can given some minutes, which again, capital fights tend to get.
Now yes they can desiege, warp, and resiege if larger movements are needed, but it means that they aren’t needing to do that simply for the sake of 10km.
Yes it’s not meant to be a magic bullet, it’s meant to fix an outdated limitation which was imposed due to mechanical limitations back in the day.
Moving 50-100k has as much impact today as it would have back then, would it not? Grids weren’t that small.
Grids were 200km back then. Unless you played with grid fu to stretch them. They are now 5000km by default.
But we also didnt have 100km across structures that shot back also. So I think it makes a lot more difference now.
I can certainly agree this is a significant difference, but within the scope of dreads… I’m still not sure it changes anything with regard to dread mobility.
When (a group whose name I don’t remember) was using Levis at like 300km away to kill citadels, I considered that bad form… I mean, good on them for emergent stuff, but still… felt like bad form.
In the case of structures, moving 50-100km doesn’t change anything at all - less so than the changes to grid, because citadels obviously don’t move.
What is the difference to a dread between a 200km grid that they can’t move on, and a 5000km grid that they can move on, assuming we make that 5000km grid relevant by putting (super)carriers 4000km away (I’ve been 3500 off before, so it’s definitely “a thing”, though that was before merely having fighters launched broke tether).
Its a lot easier for things to be 50 or 100k out of range without ending up on another grid on the larger grids.
It also means you can slowly push out of structure range if you want as a prelude to disengaging. Or forcing the enemy dreads put of tether range if they want to chase you.
Or dreads can play range games vs each other rather than whoever sieges first having to put up with your opponents getting whatever range they want.
I agree though. None of these are huge things. But it means dreads would still require individual pilots thinking about range and movement. Which would be also good
Yes, I agree, but in that case, I’d call that poor placement of your dreads. In spite of them being dirt cheap, I still consider capitals across the board to be strategic assets rather than tactical assets.
If your dreads are out of range, siege red (never not red lol), and don’t mess up the drop next time. Being out of range feels like an acceptable cost for being outwitted.
I 100% support anything that has a pilot manage their own ■■■■ a bit more and have them be less than F1 monkeys. But I’m not sure the dread is a good candidate for this exact type of change. I feel like something that tackles itself, disallows remote assistance etc, should be more of an internally managed ship (such as the “T3D mechanics” I mentioned as one example).
Let’s flip this another way. What harm do you see from dreads being able to move in siege.
I’ve listed some benefits. Under the new ewar code it should be a super easy attributes change requiring no extra code.
So… why should it not happen.
Not saying capitals shouldn’t have another long look at them. But a new mechanic is a lot more work than an attribute change.
I’ve no “game breaking” reasons… merely that when we consider a positive change for a hull, we need to spend that rebalance carefully… we’ll likely not see another for another 5 years.
As I originally said, I’m not sure it’s justified. Mostly because I don’t see enough of a benefit to warrant the change. If it came as part of other changes, sure, no problem.
Ultimately, I want to make sure we don’t blow our load on some cheap change and then have CCP put them back at the bottom of the list again.
It’s not really a new mechanic… they’ve already implemented “modes” for T3Ds. In essence, it literally would just be an attribute change (these attributes in one mode, those attributes in the other mode).
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