Regarding Senator Bellaron's Proposal

(Diana Kim) #132

… like infamous gallente warcrimes and atrocities, torture of PoWs and keeping them in explosive cells…
… atrocity of operation Highlander with its:

  • unprovoked aggression against Caldari Prime despite the treaty and
  • staging the operation in a way to genocide civilian population on the planet with that attack …
    … and the genocide of Caldari colonists in Black Rise … - though I don’t remember did it start under Foiritan?

But I won’t be surprised if you were one of these criminals who have committed atrocities by participating in operation Highlander.

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(Veikitamo Gesakaarin) #133

It is perhaps an absurdity that those Gallente who identify themselves as Progressives are regressive at least insofar as their pursuit of the primacy of the individual over all else causes them to attack the very structures of civilization – governments and institutions, traditional values, community hierarchies, and the natural culture that arises from people that share common language, history, and identity – the very things that contribute to a sense of self and purpose for a human being as a part of a society.

What makes such regressive people so dangerous however is that they are hypocrites and liars. They will speak of tolerance, but the truth is, they are intolerant of anyone who does not think or believe like they do. The Caldari State was formed under the concept of self determination (which Gallente progressives also preach but never allow) and its sole objective was to exist as its own independent polity. It was violent progressives who, unable to tolerate anyone believing different to them, continued to try and destroy the State for over a century. After leaving millions dead, what was the end result? They recognized the Caldari State as a sovereign nation – which was all that was wanted in the first place!

These so-called progressives also show their true colours even when you try to talk to them: if you try to show them facts and evidence as to why they are wrong what do they do? They will slander and defame you, or try to ‘deplatform’ you by say, egregiously using the report function on communication platforms if they cannot outright ban you from channels. If that fails, then maybe they just make things up – like some progressives who peddle crazy conspiracy theories implying Caldari meddling in Federal democracy (which is insane) then cannot even produce any evidence of collusion except in their deranged fantasies.

So most of the time it just ends up with such progressives acting like liars and then complaining when they get treated like liars by Caldari.

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(Auriga Menkalinan) #134

@Diana_Kim and @Veikitamo_Gesakaarin please feel free to continue this here.

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(Diana Kim) #135

It doesn’t have anything with fear of government of people. If it were, I’d say it there.

(Diana Kim) #136

Speaking about gallentean hypocrisy and lies, it doesn’t look like anyone has answered about concerns I spoke in here about earlier: would it involve stopping building explosive cells for inmates?

Somehow I feel like they will accept this proposal but will do nothing to stop atrocious tortures and murders of non-combatants in the warzone. But… we will see. So far it’s quite saying that gallentean pseudo-humanists were simply ignoring my concerns, likely they simply will keep doing whatever they were doing, claiming to be Humane on one hand and being the worst of monsters our cluster can create on the other.

Technically, they have inside Federation people claiming to be “Caldari”. They have this sick concept that they can “identify” themselves to anything without realising that they will never become Caldari. And these groups are probably “meddling” in their democracy - which is, sort of, should be guaranteed by gallentean false system of human rights (I probably should make a separate discussion of their “rights” in general). It’s just well known from the history, that gallente enforce tyranny of majority over minorities - like said “Caldari” influencers, so if they speak even within their democratic system something against Gallentean hegemony, it immediately painted in negative light.

But, in the end, it’s just internal gallente politics. Whatever issues they have betweed Federal pseudo-Caldari and their Gallentean overlords, is not really our business. For me, as a State citizen, the interest in this issue is only in how it will reflect Federal behavior on internatoinal scene (or, Intergalactic? how it is modern to say, despite I think we all live in the same galactic), and I repeat, in the international scene executions involve prisoners of war and genocide of colonists in occupied by gallentes Caldari colonies.

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(Auriga Menkalinan) #137

It has very little, if anything, to do with Senator Bellaron’s proposal. Please stop it, thank you.

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(Tressith Sefira) #138

I have a great deal of idle time at work. Not that I’m not working, but it’s the kind of work that keeps the hands busy and lets the mind drift. So I’ve had the leisure of considering why, every time there’s a Gallente Federation thread on the IGS, people who would likely be happier pretending our home doesn’t exist spend gratuitous hours pulling its topic away from the original post and more towards a discussion about why home shouldn’t exist - and, tangentially, why people who should understand such a discussion is destructive continue to engage them rather than focus on the actual topic.

It’s a pointless question, because for all the window dressing, it really is just: why do people post on the IGS? I don’t think anyone’s unique in this regard - people post as performance. It’s not really a place for discussion. If a person wanted that, they’d connect to the faster paced conversational fluid routers or strike up a chat with a friend, where a clumsily executed sentence will be judged on intent rather than ripped up for game points. That’s not to say that the IGS forums are pointless, or they don’t have an informal system of rules; people really do behave differently in threads about the Federation, because the rules here are different. But they also behave differently in threads about every faction, because those rules are different, too.

Here, certain parties are advertising. They don’t, won’t, maybe can’t care that there are other people here for other reasons, and their behaviour makes the pursuit of those goals harder to reach. They use our attempts to critically examine ourselves and what we want as a platform to declare that we’re invalid, that we shouldn’t exist and are undeserving of common courtesy by virtue of our investment in the Federation, so that other people with similar sentiments will know that they are safe to engage them about the furthering of that. So they don’t care that they’re off topic and they won’t listen when you ask them to take their offtopic discussion elsewhere, no matter how politely you ask. And if you’re not polite, if you at all get upset - a reasonable reaction, all things considered - then they pat themselves on the back for “winning.” I wonder if that actually feels good. Watching it just makes me feel gross.

Which, you know, whatever.

You’ll notice Aedre never bothered to post again, and he won’t. I had to spend a few days convincing him to try in the first place, and we had a conversation that’s much the same as this. It is hard to be vulnerable in the same space as people who don’t see you as human and won’t treat you as such. It’s much easier to withdraw. And they’ll count that surrender as a “win” too— because that’s one less advocate for the dreaded Federation, thus growing ever-closer to its destruction. Like, good luck with that. It’s not how I would fight a war (if I were ever so inclined) and it seems both time consuming and ineffective but, like, good luck.

If you surrender your dignity long enough to give up on the actual topic and engage them on their replacement flawed, pointless premise that the Federation shouldn’t exist (an impulse I’ve acted on myself a time or two,) they will concede nothing, but they advance their goals to the detriment of yours. They don’t really care about the Federation or its merits or its flaws, and they certainly don’t, won’t care about you - any evidence you cite comes second to what they need to think the Federation is, to justify their worldview, their behaviour, their attitude, and nothing you can offer will meaningfully change that. But it can change you, because you’re listening. Because you understand a democracy only functions when its participants are willing to listen. (And I care, and I hate seeing how it makes a person more cynical, more bitter. Probably another reason why I don’t look at this hellsite as much as I used to.)

For them, your engagement is an opportunity to supplant other constructive and meaningful discussion, it’s continued advertisement. They don’t even have to read posts you might have invested with thought and energy to accomplish what they want to accomplish. You are being used as a means to an ugly end. That’s mostly why I’m confused that people who I respect (you know who you are!) indulge them like that. They must be getting something out of it that I can’t see. Cloning fixed my shite eyesight but maybe not as well as I thought.

Oh well. Otherwise, it’s such a wonderful time to care about the Federation and be a member of our interstellar community. I smile every time I see a new name - so many new ones, lately! - and Bellaron’s proposal is, joy, gaining traction! It’s seemed like, in recent decades, our treaties have stagnated. It’s such a pleasure to see them, maybe, move forward once again.

Edit: Hi, all the usual suspects. In case someone’s struggling with how to evaluate whether one should engage with someone about a topic one cares about, here’s some questions to ask:

  1. Has the person demonstrated that they believe subject (here, the Federation) should exist? If not, then any conversation that assumes such a belief in its premise will go nowhere.

  2. And this is the hard one, does the person seem to believe there is value in participating in subject especially with regard to the way you participate?

Usually the first question is easy to identify because a person will openly declare it, and the second is more nuanced. If a person believes the only legitimate participation in subject is for its destruction or detriment, then they do not see you as someone who participates for its betterment as legitimate and will not listen to you. It brings me no joy to say a number of smart, otherwise civil and well-regarded people might pass the first and fail the second test — they’re still fine to engage on other topics, but this one, so dear to me (and maybe you too) is better avoided. You might be able to practice by reading posts in this thread and trying to answer those questions on a case-by-case basis. The answers might surprise you.

Advanced lesson: before posting in a topic, ask yourself these questions of yourself!

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(Veikitamo Gesakaarin) #139

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

I always found this stanza apt, both for what I must do, and the age I live in as a capsuleer.

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(Rinai Vero) #140

Personally, I find poetry tedious… but I’m sure that’s as fine an example as any. What have you got about criminal justice reform?

(Veikitamo Gesakaarin) #141

In dealing with the Gallente, it must always be remembered they are the kind of people who will say they want to embrace you as a friend only so they can stab a knife in your back. Let us not forget, given the leaked details of Operation Highlander, the government of the Federation has been complicit in continued violations of Caldari State territory by military vessels for the purpose of surveillance and attempts at infiltrating Caldari corporations for the purpose of espionage. These hostile actions were conducted in contravention of interstellar treaty and the Yulai Conventions.

It is unsurprising to me then that the Federation would conduct acts both illegal and morally questionable because that is their nature as a duplicitous race of people. Just like Foiritain who spoke of peace, knowing full well his own government and the Federation engages in hostile subversive activities against the State (no doubt as the Federation continues to do so) and then has his own Admiral murder thousands of innocent people knowing full well what the response would be – war.

How can we ever trust such a people who continuously lie to our faces, who say things like “we want peace and friendly relations” when at every instance its just a gaslight they turn on while they secretly engage in subversive campaigns against our people and espionage against our corporations to get an unfair advantage in the marketplace?

The answer is: we can’t.

All that they want is to keep on provoking us, and when we act against those provocations to defend ourselves they will say, “Oh, look at those evil Caldari, I have no idea why act like that towards us.” To themselves.

Well, that’s individualism taken to its logical extreme. Although, I think it is fundamentally nihilistic since if every in a society like the Federation is always correct in what they think is right, then no one is ever wrong by default. Under such a scenario, morality is impossible because morality requires distinctions between right or wrong to be made. Then at that point lies can be truth, and reality can be whatever people want it to be. Objective facts don’t matter anymore and if someone wants to be a Gallente one day or a Caldari the next day (or dog, fish, cat, whatever) then it’s expected to say, of course they are because no one can be wrong, everyone is always correct.

It’s probably why they embrace the “marketplace of ideas” concept so much like ideas can be “bought into”. Really what happens then is that ideas and thought are just another product to be sold like any other. If you like an idea in the Federation, then you " buy" it and no critical thought is required of it because everyone is an individual, and if you like that idea then it is the correct idea to have and it cannot be wrong by default.

This is why it is so difficult to reason with them, because they do not understand reason, only the confirmation bias of being told their own ideas they buy are the correct ideas - always. Facts don’t matter anymore because all that matters is how many people have also bought into an opinion in their marketplace of ideas, and if you can make it seem like enough people agree with you, that they have also bought the same idea, then even lies can be sold as the truth for them.

Then the truth is no longer about facts or reason, it becomes what the majority seems the truth to be – even if it is based on a lie. Lies that will be perpetuated by politicians who are independently wealthy enough to run for office; by the lobbyists who fund them; by a media apparatus that sets the narrative and the framework of discussion; and by corporates that profit from the resulting system based on those lies.

At which point, when the truth doesn’t even matter anymore, all that is offered to replace the loss of meaning that might have been derived from it are just the anodyne solutions of diversionary entertainments which the Gallente are rightly known for. Sufficient soporifics I suppose for those who might feel the existential pains of an exploitative economic system lacking in any actual ethical options beyond dog eat dog, and the resulting sense of alienation and isolation it might create.

For those who might feel that is insufficient I suppose there’s the conduct of a mass shooting in the style of Gerne Broteau for those angry enough at their dehumanization and need to find someone to blame.

But maybe it is like you said, for a society that speaks of humanity the Federation seems to create a lot of inhumane people who don’t even know what is right or wrong anymore.

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(Diana Kim) #142

I despise spies, yes, but I usually emphasize their quite open invasion - infiltration of Caldari Prime with FDU mercenaries. Espionage exists, everyone do that and claim they don’t when they’re caught. But that infiltration with mercs is what makes the Federation special. The whole operation Highlander is open violation of the treaty and Yulai Conventions, not just their espionage operations that happened before that.

Morally questionable? They quite often act directly amoral. Take this operation Highlander as example. Or treatment of Caldari PoWs. Or the same ramming station in Malkalen that you mentioned. Slogans to “Exterminate all Caldari” on Caldari Prime. I tend to call things with their names. If it is amoral, I call it so, and I don’t take lightly those who want to question that.

Indeed, trusting a gallentean is a worst blunt a citizen could commit. We all really shall be wiser and learn already that if we step on rake and it hits our forehead, we shouldn’t step on it again in hope it won’t next time.

Surprisingly, we didn’t do anything evil against them, which I am not really happy with, but, alas, it’s better to remain human than turn ourselves into gallenteans. Yet… I entertain myself and my opponents often with a thought, for example, how good could it be, for example, to bombard Gallente Prime. Oh, it’s almost every gallente will call me evil for that! And then I just victoriously poke their nose to the fact that we didn’t bombard Gallente Prime, but they did bombard Caldari Prime, so they basically called themselves evil!

They really must learn their place.

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(Gosakumori Noh) #143

Although I disagreed with almost all of their conclusions, I agreed with Star Frac (…tion? …tal? I believe “tion”)… Star Fraction’s contention that all governments are inherently coercive.

Amarr and the State are open with their citizenry about the need for order, authority, and consequently coercion.

Now that I am a nun and enjoy positive standings with the Republic, I will decline to criticize its nascent government. It has work to do, but I am confident they will figure it all out in a few hundred years.

As for the Federation, however, its ruling class has willfully and repeatedly lied to its own people about why they must be coerced. The Empress says “do as I say because I have the mandate of Heaven and I will kill you, otherwise.” People can assert that she has “no right” to rule, boohoo. People cannot assert, however, that she hides rulership behind pretty lies about “democracy” and “individual rights” and “equality of opportunity” and, oh, here it comes: “ordered liberty.”

“Ordered Liberty” is the fundamental building block of any so-called “democracy.”

The “order” in “ordered liberty” means “do as I say because I have bribed the most legislators into writing the laws I want; otherwise, the police I have bribed will kill you.” Societies built upon “ordered liberty” are lies wrapped around lies wrapped around greed and more lies.

The Federation must be destroyed.

(Rinai Vero) #144

I’ve designed a drone to read Caldari walls of text in Gallente threads to see if any of their discussion is on topic. My last test run showed none of the recent posts had any content relevant to Senator Bellaron’s proposal. If I missed something, let me know. Otherwise not reading further.

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(Tressith Sefira) #145

Right. I suppose it’s my turn to actually make some relevant discussion points. (Honestly, I’ve been hoping they’ll let the thread die and leave Aedre and me in peace, but if it’s going to drag on, I’ll reluctantly do my part.)

Insofar as the responsibilities of all governments, and therefore, our government: diplomacy, which is arguably the same as security. Social, economic, and environmental pressure grows in individual communities to pool resources for long term investment causally with population (and other factors, but let’s keep it simple for the moment.) This pressure builds until pooling intra-community can’t relieve it, and so, we enter the realm of inter-community, and therefore, governance.

A fair number of costs associated with the responsibility of our government to our communities don’t increase exponentially with population, or - once a certain threshold of investment and preplanning is met - level off. Upliftment tends to handle those barriers for our various governments, as far as they’d prefer it to, at any rate; crisis of times past, in areas like energy, health, housing, food and nutrition, other infrastructure, challenges that toppled empires are, if not resolved entirely and uniformly, not so pressing that they occupy the news for a great deal of time, ignoring the occasional scandal.

Before I get @‘d, I’m not interested in “generations of complacency” as evidence of societal failure. That argument is literally as old as the printing press and is equally trite. New challenges arise always - and some never go away.

Like diplomacy/security, which certainly does scale. Obligations and requirements of diplomacy/security never taper off - I think common consensus holds they’re an exponential pressure. Diplomacy is, generally, the less resource-intensive method of handling the same problem security addresses. And this is where the Federal model has succeeded beyond most expectations. We all have managed to make and sustain a system where the Mannar and Intaki can coexist without the former subsuming the latter - few will deny that the original Mannar Hegemony, had it reached the space age before being introduced to alternative means of conflict resolution, would have resembled the early Amarr Empire. (Not to undercut the mistakes made with regards to the Horizon Republic, but, hey, it turns out upliftment is complicated and the third time is not the charm. But that’s a separate topic.)

As we here know, what happens on the Federal level of governance is not, strictly speaking, governance. Bellaron’s proposal is not domestic policy. This is diplomacy. This is exciting diplomacy — a real challenge that we haven’t seen the likes of since, oh, maybe the Freedom of Communications Act of YC83. It’s debatable. Before I was born, easily.

My member state doesn’t have capital punishment (or prisons, for that matter) but a number of other ones do in my district, which makes extradition agreements in the district parliament something of a ■■■■■■■ nightmare. One of the few topics that gets the PMs throwing shite around and making uncharitable comments about people’s parents. It’s very hard to collaborate cross-jurisdiction for international issues like smuggling of various kinds when you’re preeetty worried the neighbours might starve someone you hand over on planetary broadcast networks until they die. (It only has to happen once before you start “losing” transfer paperwork, I’ve observed, a bit like what happens to invitations to attend parties from a particularly dreadful host.)

A capital punishment directive that lays the foundation of a constructive district debate would be nice. I’ve always wanted an extradition treaty, but no matter how many times I put it on my birthday wishlist, it’s never one of my presents.

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(Auriga Menkalinan) #146

I agree with both of these statements. Taken together, they make for sobering reading. With issues of this scale, if talking doesn’t work, governments tend to resort to more robust means of persuasion.

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(Tanagura Amoii) #147

I have no memory of Anvent Enturrer.

However, under present circumstances, meaning plague, endless war, and emergent threats, capital punishment seems wasteful if not amoral. How many people can societies afford to lose?

Perhaps criminals could serve in a military regiment. After some period of loyal service, their contribution would be recognized with freedom. In the event of disloyal service, the military judicial process could run its swift course.

Doesn’t the Republic do this?

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(Rinai Vero) #148

Although I’m no expert on the subject, I believe Minmatar recruitment of convicts into the Republic military has to do with various cultural traditions related to regaining personal and tribal honor. In the Federation, our martial traditions are somewhat more removed from “warrior culture” roots like Rovenour-era codes of chivalry. Most of our citizens would perceive such a policy as forced conscription closer to the oppression of the U-Nat era, not an opportunity for redemption in the eyes of kith and kin.

Perhaps a revival of such concepts would benefit our society, who knows?

As far as the armed forces of the Federal government are concerned, my opinion is that we are generally better off with an all volunteer force. Such “Penal” units may serve a beneficial purpose for local security or emergency response forces under the right social context, but do not suit the highly professionalized nature of a modern interstellar military. Morale depends on recruiting individuals who are highly motivated to defend the Federation and uphold its ideals. Citizen-soldiers, dedicated to the protection of the body politic, enlisted via informed consent, and willing to serve and sacrifice alongside their like minded brothers and sisters at arms.

A military made up of such individuals can be a guardian of all the highest principles a democracy holds dear. Such a force can not sustain itself without a mandate from its people. Thus, it becomes much more difficult for them to become a tool of oppression. Conscription, on the other hand, makes its foundation on government coercion of the people. Sometimes the survival of a people may depend on it, and sometimes it may be used justly… but it should not be relied upon without the gravest need.

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(Tanagura Amoii) #149

My view was provincial. The Sang Do romanticize Rovenour culture as a near kin to our own traditions. In fact, Jin-Mei artists often depict knights with curious names in fantasy novellas. Truthfully, our society changes only slowly.

The Federation deserves credit for humoring the deliberate pace of that transition.

But while order, discipline, and responsibility to society have represented core principles of our culture for centuries, one of our greatest scholars achieved enlightenment in prison. It is of course necessary to maintain public order and safety. Still, the potential contributions of those who have been condemned should not be discounted.

The risk that Federal citizens would see a legion of the condemned as forced conscription had not occurred to me. It would be condescending to state how Good Spirits would view such a military force, while those Standing High might make polite excuses on my behalf. Speaking for myself, I believe that our culture expects citizens to contribute, or failing that, to avoid detracting. The condemned “should” consider it their duty to contribute. However, it is true the pressures of Jin-Mei society can become oppressive.

Considering it further, I agree military preparedness may be harmed by introducing a “condemned legion.”

Looking elsewhere, we have within our borders metropolitan areas classified as “omega.” These suffer from the consequences of social collapse. It would require a large investment of civilian law enforcement personnel to restore civilization.

Perhaps the Matari traditions could be adapted for that purpose.

Turning to an external cultural practice as a solution for difficult domestic problems would showcase the Federation’s broad respect for diverse ideas.

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(Tanagura Amoii) #150

I see that there has been an update on the status of Senator Bellaron’s effort to abolish the death penalty. Although I am glad the wheels of representative democracy continue to rotate, some of this news is unpleasant.


In the Gallente Federation, the slow passage of the “Bellaron Bill” aiming to outlaw capital punishment has allowed a substantial public debate on the death penalty to develop on most Gallente worlds. Senator Suvio Bellaron’s bill was tabled for debate by the full Federal Senate but has been held up as procedural wrangles have resulted in it moving up and down the Senate schedule. Meanwhile, proponents of the bill accuse special interests from constituent states that retain the death penalty of using “dirty tricks”. Last night, a rally to support the measure was held in the center of Clovis, the main federal city on Chandeille, but broke up in violent scenes as pro-death penalty groups clashed with rallygoers. Dr. Arturio Kiervalan, speaking at the rally on behalf of Aidonis Medical, told the Scope’s Galactic Hour with Ret Gloriaxx that, “I’ve seen political violence in many places, such as when I served in refugee camps in the Minmatar Republic, but it’s especially sad to see it in the Federation. It won’t stop this movement though. The end of capital punishment is coming.”


It is saddening that such unrest should mar the surface of Tei-Su, Serene Heavenly Pavilion, the world of Chandeille. It may be tempting to propose that violence rises from the erosion of a carefully refined social order. However, our past is replete with spasms of violence in the name of structured prosperity. The citizens of Lirsautton have at their disposal the accumulated work of countless sages. Study is the way forward. I regret that I have not studied more.

Senator Bellaron’s proposal is worthy of consideration.

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(Arrendis) #151

spin like the insane pinwheels of madmen.

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