Remove / restrict SOME ESI endpoints

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
1

So I’m aware that at first glance this is going to get immediately shot down but hear me out. There will be no TL;DR…

I think CCP ought to remove or restrict our ability to use certain ESI endpoints.

Ok, but why?

I fully understand that ESI and prior to that, API have been super helpful for all sorts of reasons. I also know that being given access to develop tools with this kind of open-ended information has been detrimental to certain aspects of the game.

Can you elaborate on why ESI can be detrimental?

First and foremost I’m 100% in support of content happening and 100% against content dying in the cradle before it’s even a possibility.

Secondly I firmly believe that information about what’s going on in-game should only be accessible while in-game. (Will expand on this later)

——

So to expand on these points, first I will bring you back to a time when we had the Mobile Siphon Unit deployable. This was a deployable like the Mobile Tractor Unit or Mobile Depot, that when placed within range of a POS setup to do reactions and such, would siphon out a bit of the end product and place it into the deployable. This siphon was a genius way to conduct guerrilla warfare on even an industrial level! It punished laziness and being unaware because of left unchecked the siphon would take a decent amount - enough to make it worthwhile. Sadly this deployable became garbage because of API… by simply looking at a 3rd party tool or spreadsheet a reaction POS owner was able to tell if a siphon had been placed at his POS because he know how many units of end product he should have vs how many they are getting.

Killboards are another tool that while neat, is detrimental to content. The level of Intel that is provided all while not having to be in-game is disgusting. I wonder how many fights have been prevented because of it? How many gate camps dodged instead of having to actively scout?

If you own structures or are involved with them at any level, I’m sure you’re aware of tools that will report to you the state of a structure (low power etc.) as well as if the fuel is low. Imagine having to actually login to check on the state of your structures! Imagine having good to login to check the fuel! Now I know that the UI for the structure browser is lacking but i can’t help but wonder what kind of fights could or would breakout over structures IF a structure owner didn’t have access to this information out of game and failed to manage the structure(s) properly.

For the same of the length of this, I’ll leave specific examples up for others to brainstorm and consider, but I want my primary point to be understood: Having access to develop tools using ESI kills content AND automates too much!

But I can think of many examples where having access to ESI generates content!

Yeah I can think of examples too and I think it’s terrible that you can go from sitting on the couch, digesting all sorts of Intel, then hop straight on and into content. I know that sounds crazy but the primary example I will use isn’t ESI but the old log server paired with the old watchlist. You guys remember that? Groups like Rekking Crew (or specifically them, I’m not 100% sure who all abused this) were able to see the exact moment a known super or titan pilot would login. They could go from grilling in the backyard to loging in their Onyx within moments without even having to be logged into that system or even the game. CCP removed our access to that part of the log server and forever nerfed the watchlist instantly despite years of complaining about its power as an instant Intel tool.

So while that example doesn’t involve ESI and as far as I’m aware impossible now, the fact still stands that just because something generates content doesn’t mean it’s healthy.

I would much rather have to play the game actively and do my own scouting and Intel rather than having some bot or notification scraper tell me when to login or do a thing.

So you’re telling me that you don’t take advantage of Intel or tools like this?

Of course I do… and I absolutely hate that I feel the need to in order to be competitive. Some examples of this are even some tools I use… such as getting discord pings anytime someone dies in the abyss with a ship / pod worth over 1b ISK. While this is useful to me as a Highsec ganker, there are other ways for this kind of hands off Intel gather can be useful to others.

What about a discord bot that scrapes notification ESI and tells you the results of a locator agent? So now you can have your buddies run locators and YOU get that Intel while sitting on your couch.

Wanting to catch that pesky neighbor of yours smartbombing the gate in his Machariel, but your wife has you doing chores around the house? Well setup a discord bot to report when that pilot is actively smartbombing and getting kills, then you can login your Arazu and be ready!

My point is that just because this distanced level of automated Intel results in content, doesn’t mean it’s good for the game.

Are there any innocent uses of ESI? What about those?

Yeah I think MOST industrial uses are good. I can pick out some specific endpoints that I don’t like but that isn’t the purpose of this really. My intent is to get you, the reader to think about which endpoints negatively impact gameplay when it comes to actual content.

For a long time Eve Online has been a game that you can play without even playing it. It’s spreadsheets in space. It’s… whatever. Honestly while it has that weird niche about those memes, I would kinda be embarrassed if I was CCP to know that people would rather automate content instead of actually playing the game.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. I will edit this post in a few hours with some specific screenshots on tools I use to abuse Intel gathering.

1 Like
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You know how to fix EvE? Two simple changes:

  1. Make kill/loss mails public information for everyone
  2. Require each ESI access to non-public information 2F authentication.
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In short: All you want is more frustrating and unrewarding tedium with structures for the majority of the people just so that you can grab a handful of easy structure kills? Sounds like something that CCP would gladly do.

It doesn’t kill any content. You can grab people on the way to structures to refuel them. And you spare yourself the annoying structure grind which is anything but content.

I would be embarrassed as a developer if I put my paying customers through the UI hell that I created just to fuel structures and keep track of fuel levels. Honestly, I cannot imagine a more engaging and worthwhile activity in EVE than running around my structure holding, taking control to check fuel levels, relinquishing control, wait session change to undock, go to the next structure and rinse and repeat. There is absolutely nothing more rewarding and fulfilling than doing that.

And you know what? That would be the perfect thing for a bot to do. Just let it run around every other day to check the fuel levels and enter the fuel level in an online spreadsheet that alerts you if the structure level goes below a certain threshold. Removing the ESI endpoint does not fix your perceived issue. It simply makes it easier for the knowledgeable to keep their stuff safe while other people suffer from sever exhaustion and frustration. Good job, you made EVE a better place.

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No. Not at all.

What is frustrating about logging in and checking your structures fuel? I understand that the UI isn’t helpful at all in that aspect but that’d be a simple change for CCP in the structure browser.

I am about content. This isn’t about making everyone but me miserable because this is a game you know… shouldn’t you have to actually play the game to play the game?

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You answered your own question in the same line. Even in the first post. And I answered it with another example why it is in my next paragraph.

Your suggestion makes the game more miserable for everyone just because some lazy structure killers want a handful more kills because someone’s attention slipped for a moment. As said, this is exactly what CCP will do eventually. Banking on people’s mistakes just so that they get capital punishment is their design philosophy for the last few years.

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This isn’t specifically about structures but it is a part of it. I don’t bash structures but I see the value in content erupting from not having as much information readily available without having to be in game.

I think you’re over reacting. If CCP were to add an element to the Structure Browser UI that told you how much fuel was left, and you could literally scroll through your list of structures you had ACL for… how hard or annoying is that? Imagine having to login to play the game!

You’ve completely missed the boat with this thread. This thread isn’t about killing structures. Not at all. Thanks for your input though.

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You know that this would be virtually the same as the current ESI, right? Just with the added step of logging into the game every day, which is also just like the ESI. And you’d still do it from being undocked, so no added content there. And you could just have a bot doing what I wrote above, so it’s still automated for the tech-savy, while other people have to suffer through checking a list or notifications every other day.

The ESI logs you in every day. Even more reliably than the players.

Less information, you say? Then how about we remove some chat info for people with negative security status because the empires would not want criminals in their systems. I wonder how Safety. would like that for their ganks.

I think you just don’t understand what busywork, frustrating, annoying and unrewarding gameplay experiences are. The structure example is just one of many where your “idea” creates more frustration, more busywork and no rewards whatsoever for no good reason other than stroking the ego of some lazy attackers.

You know what is funny? You say this topic is not about structures but structures are the only example you gave so far. Killboards work without ESI, so they don’t count. Plus, KB made it easier for me to decide whether I want to stay to bait a neutral into a fight or leave because a pointless feed without any chance for fighting back is no content. You know what is even funnier? You gave more examples of the ESI enabling content. In other words: This topic is about structures and nothing but structures. But thank you for your suggestion in this forum.

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It wouldn’t impact Safety. in the least. Use a scout. Off topic but yeah… no impact.

You might be one of the bottom of the barrel lazy players I thought of while considering all the above in the OP :stuck_out_tongue:

Explain what is frustrating or unrewarding about having to scout or gather Intel yourself?

You literally authorize your account for Zkill to grab your kills automatically. No one that is wanting to be sensitive of the Intel they give out is going to manually post their kills or losses either.

The content that ESI enables is for players that are uninitiated and lazy. They are bottom of the barrel, simple as that. So while you enjoy being able to analyze your automatically scrapes Intel to decide if you want to risk playing the game or not… it in fact is something that kills content in the crib.

Like I said… structures are only part of this puzzle. If you own structures it’s in your best interest to monitor them. If it’s as easy as 3 clicks and moving your scroll wheel after you login then what’s the issue?

If fuel needs to be checked I’d rather that player actually login. I also think that this example of botting is super exaggerated.

Is it not content if for example I forget to check my fuel and it runs out, then suddenly there’s a fleet knocking on my stuff? You have a choice then - fight or don’t fight (both result in content)

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I have chars that are not authorized via Zkill and I post things manually as I see fit of the other party doesn’t automatically post the stuff. As said, does not count.

If you have to do every day or every two days or every three days, repeatedly. Yes. Yes it is an issue. It adds nothing to the game but annoying, repetitive, unrewarding busywork without any redeeming value.

They are logged in. The ESI literally doesn’t work without something being logged in. And the botting example is not exaggerated. People have setup bots for more menial tasks like markets or exploration. Having a bot scrape through the ingame UI to check the notifications for low fuel levels or the structure browser is even more basic and something only a bot enjoys doing… because they don’t care that it’s a mindless, idiotic task.

Sure, if you consider shooting a defenseless structure content, that’s your prerogative. Since you are from Safety., you are an expert in doing exactly that anyway. It’s no surprised that you consider it content.

You do not scout or gather any intel when it comes to structure fuel levels of your own structures. I mean, do you check your car’s fuel level manually every day with a rod instead of checking the fuel gauge behind the steering wheel? This is the level of stupid experience that you want players to experience.

What other parts are there? As stated above, the KB is not automated if you don’t want it to be and therefore only gives a partial overview of what is coming at you. The KB might be right, it might be wrong. I lost a ship recently because I trusted the KB too much and didn’t look too deep into the char that was combat probing me. This was content for all of us thanks to the KB.

How about you name something else other than structures and the KB where ESI endpoints prevent content. Since this topic is not about structures and since it is such a big problem for you, you should be able to come up with a number of other examples where the ESI information gathering prevents content.

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This is a thoroughly terrible idea.

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Believe me, it is not.

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You shouldn’t take a word from the blocs as honest feedback. The more they downplay the relevance of ESI intel, the more they will cry when restrictions being put in place.

IMO, individuals shall be able to use ESI for their own data, nobody else shall be able to access someone’s non-public data. An enforced 2FA for ESI calls may help with this, or rules put in place by CCP that sharing access is a bannable offense.

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That’s laughable. :rofl: CCP does not ban entire alliances for botting although it is proven that they are nothing but botters. They did not ban alliances for exploiting the system back in the days to rake in trillions from broken FW rewards, or for manipulating the char portraits to show standing tags back in the days before chats showed standing tags (which was the reason why they do it now, too). No one will stop asking for ESI just because it’s a bannable offense simply because it’s ridiculous to assume CCP will enforce this and ban 60% of its playerbase.

I take it as honest feedback because I have been playing long enough to experience a number of changes to how recruitment works, how member tracking works and how tracking of activities in EVE work. Big groups have found ways and will find ways to work around this and it will give them an advantage over people and groups that cannot do that, which will in turn lead to the situation that pressures CCP into implementing the system for everyone to level the playing field again. Assuming anything else is laughable.

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that’s pretty stupid.

I want my app to tell me what I own. Without asking for a 2FA every 5s (yes, position is updated every 5s - and yes I need that update every 5s for each of my accounts, for example to check the structure and its bonus to reprocess).

Informatics is automatic management of information. The automation implies to have external access to the data, so someone else can also have access to it.

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Correct, that’s why 2FA, in order to make automation and external access impossible. Thanks for confirmation that this will do what it intends to do.

With inefficiency coming back to EvE, fun and carelessness will also come back.

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No.
In order to make automation and external access impossible, you need to remove any computer access.
You are completely wrong when you assume that removing ESI would remove automation.
Before ESI was there, people were using bots (that are allowed) to get data. Market scrapper, mail scrapper (hence kill mail)

So what you are asking is just to make the game more tedious, by removing ESI. Nothing else.
That’s why that’s pretty stupid. Making the game worse has always been a stupid idea.

So if you intend to propose stupid ideas, yes this does what you intended to do.

Nope.
Inefficiency is still here. Just because people like efficiency more than inefficiency, does not mean there is no inefficiency.
On the opposite, those who have fun with efficiency (example : me) won’t have fun if you remove the tools that allow efficiency and require tedious. Unless of course I decide to use bots to get the data ESI is not providing any more.

You have a distorted vision of Eve. Efficiency is required by the nature of MMO with perma death. If there is no efficiency, people play only with ibis.

So, follow your own advice, and play only with ibis, without the market.

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I never proposed removing ESI, you may have confused me with OP. I believe in the value of apps and external data access … only I request that each data pull has to be a human person.

Which game you are talking about? EvE has no perma death. Capsuleers are immortal.

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Perfect, it’s not automated.

Are you telling me that you only fuel your structure for a few days at a time? I have a hard time believing that most structure owners/managers do this. Part of the redeeming value is… wow! Reserving the right to own and use that structure. If you for all intents and purposes abandon it because it’s too cumbersome to login and make sure everything is good, then maybe you have no business owning a structure?

I mean player logged into the game. Like to be even more specific since you are trying to word-warrior me: They have launched the client and are playing Eve Online. Maybe when they login to check their fuel, industry jobs, and etc they remember they wanted to haul something or go run a mission… or maybe 5 minutes doing any activity won’t hurt.

You’re trying to hard here, man.

I also have a hard time believing that you can provide evidence that changes such as these will lead to a meta where fuel checking botters are the meta. Will some bot? Absolutely. Will the majority bot? I don’t think so.

Who said anything about defenseless?

Again, this is where you have blinders on. I’m not going to keep repeating myself.

KillboardsARE a big part of this… a primary reason in fact. Killmails are generated server side. We’re given an option to copy the kill information and post it manually or you can have it automatically post if you login and do all that.

So do you honestly see some 3rd party website existing where when you die you go on there and click through some options and name your attackers, what system you were in, what celestial you were closest to, what ships they were in, and how many damage they did?

That’s is what attempting to have a public record of kills and losses would be like if there were no way to export the kill to a 3rd party.

So what content does a killboard kill in the cradle? Plenty, and I’m not going to paint a picture of every scenario. Having information like this removes mystery from the game. Sure you can meta-game it and I get that you can make the argument that it creates content… but I’m here telling you that it’s not organic to be like “hold up let me not jump this gate… let me check zkill” or “ok I see that idiot1234 just lost an Imp, so I’m gonna setup a trap for him”.

My point is that the legwork of Intel should occur in game. If killboards are too broad an answer for you, then I’d suggest you think of all the various ways killboard Intel can be filtered and reported. Like I said… you don’t even have to play the game and you can get the Intel you need.

For the sake of actually falling into your troll here, another one is NPC deaths. Stargate jumps and other system or regional data that can literally build a profile for you as to when systems are hot with ratting activity and how traffic is flowing… instead of having to scout that out manually. So yes being able to take a ■■■■ while you study dotlan, where you refresh the page and see that ratting delta has had a huge uptick… then you know it’s time to get on the computer and move your cloaky scout around.

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Which is fundamentally the removal of ESI.
ESI stands for Eve Swagger Interface, a Swagger is a description of a web service, that is computer-to-computer endpoint. Requiring a human intervention is by definition the removal of the web service.

2FA is used as a security protocol, not as a part of each transaction. That’s why it’s completely stupid, it makes as much sense as asking to check your brake every 50m when you use your car. Just for the false premise that correlation is causation…