Salvaging in Scarcity

Communications Center General Discussion
21

Can you back that up with evidence? That it hasn’t stopped people from getting into industry?

I’m pretty sure you’re going to find it’s stopped plenty of people, it’s just some have still kept going anyway. I’m also pretty sure the ‘quite the opposite’ wasn’t as much on highsec’s shoulders as it was on Nullsec.

Imma bout to end this man’s whole career.

So lemme get this straight: You’re okay with people being able to buy - or else salvage materials - and then reprocess them to get the materials they need… You’re okay with smaller industrialists having to pay silly prices, lose silly amounts of minerals and isk and go through 5 steps to get a packet of 15 noxcium to build a flight of warriors(yes, I’m going to go ahead and assume they’ve already gone through the trouble of getting a researched BP of some sort, else it’d be 20)…

But you’re not okay with replacing a couple of auto cannons that you’d loot anyway with a packet or two of 5-10 noxcium instead? Cut out a bunch of the excess steps and stupid, just so… what? CCP can keep this farce that because CCP can’t balance crap correctly in every other aspect of the game, somehow it makes sense that Chardalane(.4) and Adacyne(.5), which are both quite literally right next to each other on the map and divided by one gate, somehow have a completely different ore profile because… CCP says so?

But we can still do the exact same thing with a 5 step process of place orders(market skills), wait for orders to fill, pick up goods, take to refine(refinery skills), refine for crap refine and stupid tax(grind standings), get crap return, then go build your drone(manufacture skills) that the null(or even low sec) industrialist can do in half as many steps, half the time, half the struggle? And people are still going to be attracted to do industry… without having to go join a large null bloc to make the income worth their time? Sure.

You do realize how silly of a position that is, right? :roll_eyes: Nevermind that replacing a few drops of random modules will likely also, over time, restore value to those modules and the other salvage because fewer will drop on account of a small percent being replaced by small packs of minerals?

But CCP says it makes sense and is balanced. Got it.

22

Yes, its what Ive done for the better part of a decade and have made quite the hoard of it, actually.

How? What, in what Ive said, suggests anything remotely like that.

Again, where did I say that?

Though I am against laziness. Arent those cannons/nox going to the same place, a station? Its so much effort to click 1 button?

You do realise most modules for sale in the universe are for more than their mineral cost, right? And you do realise its extremely easy to set up Buy orders in mission hubs to get vast quanities of “junk” for less than mineral cost, right? Not to mention scan/salvaging, general trawling and ninja looting?

Right?

Huh, I guess not.

23

Industry happened when high end minerals were not available in hi-sec and it happened before rorquals too. A lot of it happened in fact.

The amount of high end minerals that are required in industry, and especially entry level industry, is very low. Trading them or reprocessing mods for them has been able to sustain the economy just fine in the past. Hi-sec production was obviously not in jeopardy, it was instead where the vast majority of production happened.

The minerals are reaching producers in hi-sec just fine. This much is clear.

No need to create another high end mineral faucet in hi-sec.

1 Like
24

I’m just gonna reply by pointing out this thread of newer guys trying to get into industry and the issues they’re having, as well as the most recent MER and the one from Jul 2020, back near the start of the current war and before the redistro.

1920×1080 142 KB

1920×1080 142 KB

Interesting, that exports column, huh? Though I will also say that Forge import number on the 2021 one looks awfully strange.

But hey, you keep believing the game is the same now as it was before changes to null sec mining and the explosion of resources that followed, or back when you were doing the ‘Ramona’s 5 step plan to getting minerals’ and all that fun stuff if you want. I’m not going to entertain that delusion. It’s not the same game, not by a long shot. I’d rather see dudes like those in that thread have a shot at setting up their industry thing than see them crippled because they have to either: Follow Ramona’s 5 year plan, yeet their ships into low sec for isogen of all things, much less the others, or else pay the crabs in low and null whatever price they list, or get their research structure destroyed because dickstars were far superior to any upwell structure in HS. High sec… where all the new guys start… in a game that definitely seems to be having a retention problem but trying to do industry(since we’re currently on a build sand castles and then break them with giant fleet battles advertisement binge) in high sec is dead on arrival. It just can’t compete.

I’ll letcha rub your own brain cells together to figure out the disconnect in your current line of thinking on your own time. I’m sure there’s no difference whatsoever in the materials available before the mineral explosion and after. I’m also sure nothing about the game has changed that would negatively impact salvage or high sec industry bros in anyway… :roll_eyes:

923×572 80.9 KB

25

The evidence is when CCP previously eliminated that co-dependence it caused the entire economic system to go crazy. And when it existed for most of EVE’s lifetime it was fine.

26

When did CCP eliminate the co-dependence?

27

Around the same time as the off grid boosting was eliminated they changed the distribution of null anoms and included all the low ends in them as well, because Null were over-mining high ends by turning over huge anoms constantly and complaining lots that ABC ore values were low as a result.
That’s when they eliminated the co-dependence and about when things started to go nuts as well.

28

So about 8 months after they introduced skill injectors? Also about the same time they redid the rorqual and added excavators to be the monster miner it became?

Personally, with all that that happened in 2016, I don’t think anyone can definitively say what broke what. There were too many huge changes that dramatically changed everything that nobody could have fully predicted. Too many bad decisions that I don’t think anyone who’s honest really has a problem with nullsec in particular suffering for for a while. And then what accompanied it was a whole bunch of hisec gets no bonus, low sec gets a small bonus, and then null gets a large bonus to all things industry. See refineries, for example.

If you look at the general direction this thread has been pointed, in regards to adding some minerals to salvage, it’s been leaning toward hisec. If you would like to put forward no changes to null salvage, okay, fine, agree. Null can do with some hardship for a while. But if you look at most of the changes to industry lately, most of them have also scaled to be harsher on hisec. If you want null to depend on high sec for the bulk of its low end material, okay, fine. If you want hisec to have to get some of its high end stuff from outside, okay, fine. That degree of co-dependence is fine.

The current ‘distribution’ however, with all the other comparative nerfs(by way of low/null just having better facilities) hisec industry has taken over the years… is just too far.

Especially when Null can still get some trit and the rest from anoms, and the best HS can do is reprocessing old modules. But the supposition that because a bunch of people injected alts into rorquals does not equate to people not being pushed away from industry. Nor does it make it a good game balance decision to nuke hisec because nullsec blew up way out of proportion. Hell, I’d argue the balance should be inverted. Let HS have the majority of the ores they need to do what they need to do and make Null import most of theirs.

29

Without the removal of the interdependence rorquals could only have mined high ends, which would have prevented the massive capital production blow out that occurred, since the low end production would have still been just as limited.
So I think it is fair to point at the removal of the interdependence as the main reason for the issues, not the rorquals, if Null had been able to mine entirely self sufficient prior to the rorqual buff they would have had a similar blow out with just hulk miners also.

With regards to adding minerals to salvage, any form of gun mining is a bad idea. Mining is already low paid relative to combat, gun mining would just increase that gap.

1 Like
30

I can’t agree with that. It would have been just as easy for people to mass inject hulks and orcas and dump large hulk fleets in HS(or wherever), and then a short time later get compression in hisec through athanors. Heck, even procurers and good luck to all the gankers trying to interrupt them. Would it have delayed it? Sure… But then again, so too would it have delayed it if people couldn’t mass inject anything, instead had to slow train it, pay for it while it trained, etc. It might not be quite 6 in one half dozen in the other, but it’s certainly not worse than 5 in one half dozen the other. I mean, I had a 2 day old JF pilot just for giggles. It was a perfect storm of very bad decisions all on top of each other so people would embrace the new citadels instead of fight back against killing the POS’s and stations.

In regards to this ‘gun mining’ idea. It’s not. The minerals are already there in the form of modules. From a mechanics perspective, one would just cut out all the extra steps of place buy order, wait for buy order to fill, take to repro, repro, take to production… for some of the items that would otherwise have dropped. We’re not talking dumping 1k isogen in a wreck or anything crazy like that.

But, I see we’ve got a strong case of old players sticking to ‘the game I’ve played for a decade’ here, and not able to acknowledge this isn’t that game anymore. So shrug

31

HS ore is limited though, it’s the ability to chain anoms and the faster you eat through them the faster they respawn, even now with the timer. So injecting into HS mining fleets does not significantly change the equation.

No, it’s a disagreement about direction of development, I’m well aware the game is not what it was a decade ago, but that doesn’t mean that some changes would still not be bad choices for very similar reasons.

1 Like
32

I mean, ships are made from the same base minerals, no matter where they get blown up.

The problem I see with this is in the production of the ship you’re trying to salvage.
Those base minerals are turned into alloys, which are then used for production of the final form.
Your laser would have to deconstruct the material at a molecular level, at specific temperatures. Everything else would be burned off as slag, so you’d have to use certain crystals, at the very least, to get certain minerals.
Much like mining crystals, they would decay with use.

I think in reality, salvaging could be more viable if “rats” started dropping t2 modules. Just because they’re pirates doesn’t mean they’re poor. Presumably, they make millions off their piracy, and would want more effective ships than basic t1 everything.

33

I have no problem with salvaging (active play) being as rewarding or even more rewarding than mining (passive play).

1 Like
34

If you are going to mention me, at least have the common courtesy of replying to me.

Hilarious how you changed the goal posts from new bros wanting to make drones, to Roquals, with a stop in the middle for “how make money from BPOs” (you sell them, duh).

All I can think is that you havent played very long and have a very limited grasp of the potential activities in gme.

Hence your “think of the chidren” cry to cover your “I cant krab so gud no more.”

If you actually have a position to argue, try making it less emotively next time.

35

@Aurora_Lhakh

guess it should be in that section

JuuR

36

I know how to make salvaging profession viable. But everybody will hate that. It is simple, make it so you can’t open any ship wreck without salvaging module.

Logically thinking it is a nonsense that you can simply open a pile of smoking garbage and take the working modules 1 sec later from there, without any troubles.

Just imagine the new level of gameplay, where you can’t simply take the shiny loot from the wreck and actually need to stay there for a certain amount of time.

1 Like
37

Player ships are. Npc ships arent.

Npc’s are poor compared to us. Very very poor.

An npc battlecruiser has less than 5000hp. And does less than 100dps.

They just aren’t in the same league as us. Except maybe burners.

38

What makes you think npc ships aren’t made of the same material as our ships?

Their low dps is probably attributed more to being humans and not capsuleers. They aren’t hardwired into their ships like us, so they’re slower and have poor aim. Harder to hit critical or weak points.
They use t1 or variations, and apparently have enough isk to have unlimited ships and hideouts.
Crime appears to pay well irl, so I’m not sure it would be any different in game.

39

Why? Isogen is available in HiSec.

40

I see we have a strong case of ignoring the past mistakes to advocate making them again.
This game is not what it was 10 years ago. Mistakes were made. They tried several things that broke the system. They learned.
Your anecdotal jf pilot has no bearing on the conversation.
Are you arguing for pvp mining, or whining about skill injectors?
The minerals are not there in the form of modules. You get absolute crap returns, even with scrap V.
Taking that step and cost out would indeed bring back pvp mining, or gun mining.

Think of all the children! If there was more or equal profit in ganking ventures than there is in the 15 minutes or so to fill a venture up, you disincentivize mining, which breaks the entire economy.

There are already huge fleets in highsec mining for nullsec. Ore that never hits the market before it’s turned into something by a producer.
You’re only fooling yourself if you think null didn’t adapt to utilizing highsec more since the ore changes.

1 Like