Secondaries and sesnsible military planning

(Jevinie) #21

Makes sense in lore is a good reason. BUT, there are things like defender missiles in game that no one uses, because they are sort-of-pointless. Adding a passive defense layer to ships (where appropriate) could be an effective replacement that does ad something to the game. Secondary(s) should be weak, but that doesn’t make them pointless.

(Jevinie) #22

IF you wanted a module based addition, than battle cruisers ( and bigger) COULD get a dedicated module that fine tunes the passive defenses either for missile interception or anti-drone, neither should have a high success rate, even when maxed out. But I can imagine modules like “HMPT Secondary targeting computer” module or a “HSMV Targeting computer”. High Maneuverability Persistent Target. or High Speed Multi-Vector. One that make the secondary slightly less dismal against drones or missiles.

The change it would make to game play is that it makes fighting big ships more attrition based. Drones will be lost more often to enemy fire. It happens, but it shouldn’t make a super big impact on most battles. Atleast I wouldn’t think so. We all agree it makes sense in Lore though and that’s reason enough for it to be looked into.

(Wander Prian) #23

No, that doesn’t make it worth looking into.

(Lugh Crow-Slave) #24

smart bombs

(Daichi Yamato) #25

Yeah we did explain how it could upset balance. Look at my post where i say ‘rock-paper-scissors’. What more do you need?

We already have ways for larger ships to deal with drones. Posting like a five-year old certainly isn’t gonna help you.

Toodles vOv

(Wander Prian) #26

The added server-load means it’s a no-go as well. AOE damage calculations are very expensive for the server to run.

(mkint) #27

This is a dumb idea for the same reasons it’s always been a dumb idea. Don’t pretend you’re the first to propose it. Ship balance is working as intended, and when it’s not, it gets rebalanced. This just adds free tank to every BS. It would push the meta more to BS territory, which is undesirable. Therefore, if they were to get this tank buff, they’d require a simultaneous tank nerf, making this entire proposal pointless. And there are less stupid ways of buffing tank to begin with. To preserve your ego, just pretend that point defense weapons are included as part of shield technology, and move on.

(Lugh Crow-Slave) #28

I would say getting BBs more into the meta wouldn’t be a bad thing. But this is a bad way to do it

(Frostys Virpio) #29

If something like that ever get implemented, it will absolutely need to have drawback that render your ship nearly 100% inefficient in it’s primary intended role so you can’t double dip. You would get something like a battleship murderzoning small ships who at the same time can’t even hope to deal with anything bigger than a destroyer.

Balance trump lore/realism in all case because frankly, reality is a sad game to play.

(elitatwo) #30

When you cannot deal with smaller ships in your omnipotent boat, you are flying it wrong.

(Sterling Blades) #31

Lore-wise, secondaries exist, and are mentioned in passing on occassion. Gameplay wise, they don’t. They’re there, we just don’t get to have them as capsuleers. There, happy? Lore based response to a lore based question, alongside the gameplay logic as well.

(Mike Voidstar) #32

Pretty sure you are looking for Gurista ships. Heavy on the drones and it has been a while since I undocked one but aren’t their missile bonuses good for all size launchers?

(Old Pervert) #33

The secondary weapons you’re referring to are mounted on the smaller ships that are escorting you. IF you wanna keep your RP going, add a few RLML Caracals (navy hull if you really want…) and you’ll have zero problems melting smaller targets.

They designed a heavy hitter, with the intent of hitting big things.

A military weapon is never designed to cover everything, because then it cannot cover anything with any measure of effectivenss. They’re designed to specialize, so that they can support each other.

(Cade Windstalker) #34

Every game is “basically an X with a Y”, that’s not a reason for basically anything ever.

We can sit here and invent lore reasons all day for why the universes is setup like it is. Maybe ships just don’t have the power, maybe they don’t have the space, maybe they don’t have the supporting systems, and maybe it’s a combination of these.

It’s a game, if you’re not willing to suspend your disbelief and invest yourself in the game’s universe then you’re going to have a pretty much never ending list of these “consistency errors” in pretty much any game.

This is because if you actually understand how Eve is balanced and how the balance between small and large ships in Eve works you’d realize instantly, with zero explanation, why adding effective ‘secondaries’ to a Battleship in Eve would be so blindly and obviously over powered.

The short answer here is that large ships have more of basically everything than smaller ships. More HP, more range, more damage, more slots for utility and tank, more fitting space to fill those slots, ect. The only thing larger ships don’t have is speed, but that’s not worth much in Eve except for running away if you can’t get in and get under a larger ship’s guns in some way.

Adding secondary weapons that are effective against small ships destroys this and therefore destroys the balance between ship classes.

(Lugh Crow-Slave) #35

and the game has that. militarily a large explosive pulse that hits everything in around your ship with no gaps and uses no ammo is preferred over smaller PDF weapons to do the job

(Mike Voidstar) #36

I’d argue that ‘large’ isn’t really accurate to describe the range of smartbombs, they only really become slightly useful in the officer variants.

However, you are otherwise spot on. Secondary weapon systems exist. If the OP feels the need to equip his ship with them, he can fit any size guns/missiles to his hardpoints, and on most big ships he can put light drones in the drone bay.

Failing that, you bring Destroyer escorts, or Cruiser/Battlecruiser escorts outfitted with Rapid Light launchers and drones. Or a Rattlesnake with it’s monstrous native tank and ability to fit fully bonused light weapons for crushing the soul out of tackle.

(Cade Windstalker) #37

This isn’t really true unless you limit your use-case entirely to solo and define useful as “useful against Frigates”. Most smartbombs are quite useful against drones and in groups it’s pretty hard to stay within short to medium weapons range of a target and not hit at least one player’s smartbomb. Of course the tradeoff there is the player is probably hitting their allies, but that’s just a tradeoff of the weapon.

(Old Pervert) #38

Made me lol pretty hard. I remember the time our svipul roam encountered a lone cattlesnake and expected an easy kill.

Pointed, webbed, alright, neuts up. Oh that’s cute, he’s locking a bunch of us up. Whatever… his dps application is ■■■■ and he isn’t launching drones.

Oh… he has RLMLs and a point… RIP 4 svipuls while we decided whether to warp or whelp.

(Mike Voidstar) #39

Rattlesnake is easily my favorite non-marauder ship, only the Nestor and Damnation come close.

(Lukett MyDabb) #40

idk if that’s talking about how i said the game is old but I noticed I forgot to elaborate on how the ways i said the game would change would be changing it to it’s core. Which has been around for a long time, and the devs are just gonna say “nope, not doing this” because if it ain’t broke you don’t fix it.