@Max_Deveron I am so sorry. I made a colossal mistake in my ‘@’ on my post. Your response now makes complete sense and really sorry I confused you.
I am deleting that post and reposting with the right @ … not sure how I messed that up tbh
I have a 1.5 y/o character (+ 2 omega subs*) with 134+ million SP. I’ve invested close to $5k into this game. I hope you can find a minute to consider my concerns.
As you can guess a significant portion of that investment went into training. There were two primary factors for this investment in training.
- Training can’t be stolen or ganked
- Long term investment in character.
Recent changes changes have already stripped me of my original goals of being able to build from scratch an Orca and Obelisk to establish my self as a solo-miner/industrialist. While I only recently accomplished phase one of that goal (Getting raw ORCA and OBE BPO’s to 10/20 and the skills to build them most efficiently) The ability to build them was taken away with the changes to industry. My ability to solo mine effectively was also nerfed as I now have to have one of my subs be a drill head in an exhumer while my Orca provides a support role.
I’ve have taken my lumps adapted and moved on as is a requirement of participating in New Eden.
I also understand the game requires some culture shock to evolve to a newer generation of players to carry the torch further and I’m a fan of that even if I have more CCP ganks to deal with
However your strategy is built upon this:
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Set goal
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Research I agree but that definition of research needs to be clarified. For myself I would painstakingly work through all eve university and module attributes to max out my capabilities. Most of which I wouldn’t be able to leverage until years into the future. ( Keep in mind all I could do is mine, build and, sell equipment in an already bloated market) My skill queue still has 551d of training I have carefully planned out and prioritized. Queue selection and planning has not been an insignificant effort. Am I to be penalized for accepting that EVE was a ‘long game’ and working and investing this year and a half to plan for a real future in EVE?
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Pick a task
Early on when I still though I’d be allowed to be a solo care bear miner I could see drone manufacturing and efficiency of use were going to be key to success. As the long term goal was to be more an industrialist than a miner I bought every BPO Drone type and learned all the various issues related to the build and deployment of ALL drones. This required regular 14 jump high risk (through Uedema and in Jita) with an Obelisk for re-stocking flights to get supplies for building all the drones at a completive price point in my area. I still won’t reach lvl 5 on all the drones until later this year.
While I totally get removing complexities of training is a big key factor in bringing in new players that last longer when ‘Pick a task’ is reduced to the immediate need versus long term planning you have wiped out any need for long term planning, or at least devalued the characters of those who have in an extremely significant way - and quite frankly a significant portion of my investment.
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Get the equipment
Well for an industrialist this is actually ‘Get the BPO’ and start researching it. While it’s researching dig in to the materials you are going to need and how you are going to pay/acquire them. At which point one must back up to #2 and set a goal. Typically this has always meant adjustments to the skill queue. I don’t see how it fits into this nice clean ‘Core loop’ you envision. I don’t know how many ‘core loops’ I have currently running. To be honest I don’t know how to count them but somehow I’ve managed to have what I need when I need it because I didn’t run a core loop but multiple concentric circles all leading to the best most flexible character I can create for the looooong game -
Train missing skills
Why train AFTER getting equipment? Cart before the horse isn’t it? In the (#2) research phase a player should already have determined what they need to train or else just leave the equipment on the hanger floor to collect dust. (Also, from an industrialist mindset, figuring out where to build or buy the equipment isn’t even factored into you ‘core loop’. For industrialist this is a key piece of training that currently players are left to sort out on their own through 3rd party tools.
I realize that catering to new players that just want to ‘blow ■■■■ up’ is important to the sustainability of the game but is it going to come via the exclusions of those that love the platform for other reasons?
Get the equipment as #4 in your core loop is a decapitation of the logic that is required to be present for those not just seeking to ‘blow ■■■■ up’
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Perform the task
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Get the reward.
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Learn from Mistakes
( Does that include realizing you probably spent way to much on the equipment you purchased in #4? Not likely as the loop pretty much skips over that aspect of the game.) -
Find improvements. Is this loop going to include helping the user to know where to look? Kind of a pointless aspect of the ‘core loop’ without that.
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Upgrade equipment.
If a player realized they’d be better off with an upgrade and could afford it, the research phase should have opened this opportunity from the beginning of the loop and the loop should have rewards for having properly researched it to begin with should be built in. -
Improve skills - Again after the fact which makes no sense to me except to hurry things along.
Summary: The loop makes fantastic sense for a new, younger generation of EVE players. It’s the grind that 90% of games employ and they will recognize it, but if it’s imposed on people outside that demographic it pretty much ruins the ‘long game’. It creates a disposable game instead of the long term wonder Eve has been and hopefully will continue to be.
I sunk my money into Eve because it was unique and offered years of ‘story’ for my character(s)j. I’m very excited about Narrative driven gaming in Eve and am looking at Creating a 4th Omega sub just to be a part of the New FW and the transformation of Eve that is surely being worked on.
However if that means the long game is being phased out (Which at this point it seems like when decisions like ‘removal of the skill queue’ are being considered I might as well just play Stellaris or even Star Trek lol.
I want to see Eve succeed and am willing to suffer the growing pains it has to go through. But if that means removal of the long game CCP should just come out and say that and let those of us that had different hopes/visions take our lumps and move on instead of just looking at attrition numbers and shrugging collective shoulders.
Thank you for your time.
*Subs have a combined 112k SP
Sorry @Max_Deveron , but to respond to a player who here expresses a perfectly understandable concern about the scale of his own investments (~$5,000.00), that he should seriously consider reviewing his style of play in a so-called persistent universe, sounds to me like this huge admission of failure on the part of CCP, which has finally been relayed for months now, on this forum. This is not only incomprehensible, it is simply unacceptable.
@Paliphany_Bradbury , personally, in 19 years, I have spent in EvE Online only around 1,600.00€ for the needs of my main character and his alt, and take my word for it, I find that right now and already more than enough given the current situation and uncertainties in 2022. So ~$5,000.00 in 1.5 years, quite honestly, it’s pure madness!
Now, I fully understand your concern which moreover finds an answer in what I have been proposing to CCP for months, namely, to create a second server reserved exclusively for MMO-RPG-RTS players, i.e. without PLEXs nor injectors, a server on which CCP would no longer intervene, except for new content, and which would be financed solely by recurring subscriptions.
You see, besides EvE Online, I also play with friends on different strategy games, be it video games like Starcraft, Ground Control II, or Dawn of War, or even board games like EvE CONQUESTS. All of them never cost us more than 70-80€ of investment at the start, while we can play them again at any time at will throughout our lives, whether with friends or even family, without the publishers concerned cannot charge us again.
With games like EvE Online, this way of freely experiencing the strategy game has now become completely impossible, unless I am satisfied exclusively with ALPHA status, which I have just done recently by restructuring my character, thus giving up a part not negligible of my initial investments. One thing is certain, by doing so, I no longer worry about telling myself that my OMEGA status is about to expire and that I have to renew it before such a date. Conversely, by doing so, more than 40% of the game’s content is no longer accessible to us at all.
So it is certain that as it stands, EvE Online is not only a very disappointing online game with regard to the initial promise of a persistent universe dating from 2003, it is also very anxiety-provoking with regard to the amount of money which could now be injected into it in exchange for a few privileges ultimately amounting to cheating (PLEXs + injectors).
This is why it is necessary to separate these two styles of play via two distinct servers, with MMO-RPG-RTS on one side, and PLEXs + injectors on the other.
Ully Loom
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I don’t know about ‘madness’ absurd… I’ll take that hit.
But when comparing outlays, time wise if you started 19 years ago, whatever you did was directly competitive with the rest of the player base. I had to make up a 2 decade deficit just to be modestly competitive.
I’ve read your other posts much of which I agree with, but I have to disagree with injectors and PLEX being cheats. Without them I’d have been stuck being 20 years behind. I’m still way behind veterans like yourself but I’m not just ‘gank bait’ and feel like I can begin to impact New Eden in a small way.
You’ll never be remotely competitive by buying the skills to match a 20 year player. All you’ll manage with that is losing more expensive ships.
As long as you understand that, by all means stuff your characters with injectors to your hearts content.
Mr Epeen 
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I don’t mean to say ‘competitive’ in a PvP sense. You are absolutely correct about that. My PvP skills are non-existent still. (Looking to work on those next) in FW.
Most importantly my business model has been built based on the adage ‘Never fly what you can’t replace’ I have modified that to never fly what you don’t have a backup of in the Warehouse and all the BPO’s and skills necessary to replace the replacement.
The only thing that doesn’t conform 100% to that rule is my research Ratairu, but even that is about 80% complete toward that business goal.
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I’m not sure what to think at this point. I saw a video from fanfest where a developer said the skill queue will be removed, but then there is an ISD on these forums calling that a rumor and that a developer of the game saying it’s going to happen doesn’t make it not a rumor.
Is this a personal thing for the ISD or is there precedence for CCP developers saying something and it never happening?
Let’s all stop and remember a time where we would have to set an alarm on our flip phones for when our one skill would complete at like 3am so we could set another in the next 24 hours
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Sadly Frostpacker had contacted space cooties so I must make this brief, the market is starting to show signs of change and the small ripples from weeks past thought to have smoothed though as some might already be seeing there appears to be a slight decline in the value of Skill Point Injectors while the value of Plex continues to rise also taking the value of Skill Extractors along for the ride with it.
The market does look to be normal to some, so please overlook and continue but I do not wish to take the risk of seeing it drop so fast. Can anyone guess or tell what will happen to the price of Skill Point Injectors by the end of the Weekend?
/
Side issue non urgent,
Again, I will be docked up in Jita for the whole weekend while as I recover from this contagious condition. @Vinnegar_Douche
This condition is rather shocking to catch and I would just like to point out the amount of weight my pilot had started to lose just this past 6 hours alone
/5M skill points and the infection might be spreading!
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So grateful to CCP that all skillpoints will be removed soon and everyone will be on even footing and can fly all ships and build all things.
Just so you’re aware, this might be true now, but historically was not the case.
I doubt CCP would ever reintroduce the concept of skill loss and pod quality, but something to be aware of in history.
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Pepperidge farm remembers
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Oh you are buddies with Sol, I talked to him ingame, he is really nice
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read the entire topic and still don’t understand how the ■■■■ this will work
im confused
can you guys draw for me ?
Will do my best to show you…
Skill Training Tree as we currenty move skills up and down the list will be removed as per Funfest vod 46:40… Y124
Omega Clone state using Plex will begin to hurt your bottom line.
The price of skill injectors once more see the full picture.
ok
but wen i want to pew pew with my small beam lazors i will need skills?
no more skills?
no more injectors ?
still confused
The way I understand it…
You will accumulate SP passively like always, probably per account into a unallocated.
You will no longer have a skill list because of this to train skills.
Instead, when you have enough SP for a skill/level you will inject SP into said skill/level…instead of passively training a list of skills.
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Pew Pew Mode Enabled
that sounds stupid
because … like … uhhhhhh… its more … uhhhhh …busy work for the same result
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but bruh…CCP thinks its too complicated for new players to think about skill ques and attributes!! LOL
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