SKINR Feedback: Recent Changes and Marketplace Balance

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
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Just some quick observations while wondering about possible correlation between the recent SKINR changes and a marked drop in Paragon Hub sales since the recent changes in July were implemented. Has anyone else seen a noticeable drop in design sales recently? I’m trying to parse whether this is the storefront just naturally losing steam or if there’s an observable loss of demand because personal SKINR use is much, much easier now compared to launch.

I have a good amount of posts here describing points of friction/scarcity in the system that, while likely frustrating for folks looking to create personal skins at minimal/zero expense, did allow designers to see a fair return if they invested early in sequencing skills, nanos, patterns, etc. Most of the recent changes have seemed universally player-positive without disturbing much of the fragile designer-consumer balance in the marketplace, stuff like QoL bumps that make navigating the PH and its adjacent spaces easier, etc. However, a few – and I would point to the sequence time/cost reduction as a possible suspect – seem to have tipped the balance and access a bit too far in favor of players that haven’t really invested much into the system at all.

From notes accompanying the recent changes, it seems like CCP is keeping a close eye on marketplace balance, and I wonder what kind of balance they’re ultimately trying to achieve. I also wonder if anyone else has been experiencing this kind of marked change. If I had to guess, I’d made maybe 2-3 meaningfully profitable sales a week before the time/cost-reducing changes went into effect. Since then, I’ve made mayyyybe one such sale a week.

TL;DR – While understandable through the lens of keeping outspoken players happy, reducing sequence time and cost may have tipped market/industry balance too far in favor of players that haven’t really invested anything into SKINR. It might be a good idea to focus on other things that players have asked for (eg. corp skinning capabilities) as opposed to eating the foundational parts of the system that motivate players to pay designers.

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Thanks for the insightful post. From everything I’ve read, the first week or so was a boon for SKIN sales. Beyond that I know it’s dropped - I just couldn’t put a finger on exactly how much.

I never listed any SKINs prior to the recent changes, but recently sold one (1) Kronos SKIN (200 PLEX) for a profit of 8 PLEX (160 PLEX cost + 32 PLEX tax). It took about 10 days to sell, so I’m not sure where that falls on the fast vs. slow sale scale or if it was designed/listed for a cheaper hull it would’ve sold quicker.

I’m going to refine the design for a few other hulls (Rattlesnake, Machariel, etc.) and adjust the list price so I can net about 10% profit (which I think is fair).

Going forward, I think SKINR sales are going to be a lot like Abyssal items - reasonably-priced and well-designed SKINs will sell, but I think you may need to focus on one design/theme across multiple (or class) hulls - and probably have a dozen or more SKINs listed with another half dozen in sequencing at any given time.

I’m sure CCP has some interesting data. Maybe for those of us budding designers they might release some numbers? @CCP_Swift

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Thanks for the reply and info!

Your process sounds pretty similar to mine in a few ways, actually. Funny enough, I also started designing for Rattlesnake and Mach. One of the absolute best changes so far IMO (and the kind of QoL changes I’d prefer seeing) has been the small, newer HUD in the storefront that shows a selection of skins for the hull you’re currently piloting. It was around then that I started sequencing for those hulls in particular, and I did see a return on it – before the sequence time reduction, at least, which, again, might just be coincidental with a natural slowing in the market.

A lot of what I’d been doing so far personally was looking for nice combinations of a.) popular hulls, b.) simple designs that fill a gap in the official skin marketplace (eg. matte black), and c.) hulls that maybe don’t cost as much to design toward, for whatever reason (eg. Trig ships), and it worked out well for a while. I’ve been pushing larger margins with the hope of promoting some kind of luxury in “Cannonsteel Armory” as a brand, but that might not be the most sustainable thing in the world. In my original planning, I did consider that 10% over cost was probably where everything would land.

From here – and I know the solution likely isn’t simple – I feel like there needs to be a better balance of access vs. exclusivity for folks that either haven’t or definitely have invested in SKINR skills and resources. My worry at the moment, which could be off, I admit, is that these changes are trending toward a situation where folks that invested in SKINR early essentially suffer a cost that eventually isn’t requisite for folks to sequence whatever they want whenever they want. Fingers crossed we see more rebalancing.

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No problem at all - it’s nice having an actual “discussion” for a change on the forums…

It’s probably a combination of the slowing of the market, the typical summer ‘dip’ (fewer players) and player reaction to Equinox (there’s an interesting post on Reddit with respect to the unusually large ‘dip’ this summer).

I think granting access to all the design elements is a double-edged sword (and I’m decidedly neutral - being neither for nor against it). On the one hand, access to all the design elements is a draw for new players. On the other, it’s easier to replicate designs without having to invest in the design elements. The ability to potentially track any missing design elements is certainly a plus.

As an early adopter/advocate, I was fully expecting to take a fairly substantial hit on the design elements that landed on the market. Prices seem to have stabilized, and I don’t see “unlimited” color elements dropping too much below 10m ISK (except for the rarer ones, which seem to be holding at several hundred million each). The rare pattern elements also seem somewhat stable around a half billion ISK.

I would like to see more opportunities for “rare” design elements - beyond the limited “packs” in the NES store, occasional Twitch reward or what drops in the game.

Something that I think could augment SKINR is expanding the personalization section of the ship fitting with elements that can be purchased for Evermarks (regular) and premium (PLEX). Both would permanently unlock these personal elements for a specific ship class only.

• Decals - regular (static) and premium (animated; not sure if this is possible); several (fixed) options for placement for both types.
• Engine glows - regular (primary colors) and premium (exclusive colors like blacklight, gold, etc.)
• Hull (window) lighting - regular (static) and premium (F/X; flashing, random blinking, damage, flame, rainbow, etc.)
• Spotlight lighting - regular (primary colors) and premium (exclusive colors)
• Mode lighting (Bastion, Siege, etc.) - premium only (different colors)

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This is an interesting thought, for sure. I know that people have been wanting some kind of Evermark tie-in, and my thought is that it’s just all about granularity, that there might be more accessible personalizing SKINR options that can be purchased with EM, as well as premium personalizing SKINR options that can be purchased with PLEX. I think arguments for Evermarks only truly end up in the weeds when players want to use the currency to enter the marketplace the same as anyone using PLEX.

I’m in total agreement that seeing more opportunities for “rare” elements would make for a better situation overall. I’ll even go a step farther to say that one possible way forward (to help create better opportunities for players that have invested in sequencing) might be CCP providing element options that actually have skill prerequisites to sequence them within a design. Imagine a skill tree where players choose between specializing in elements like the ones you’ve described above – here’s a skill to V that grants access to increasing complexities of engine glow, color, and effect (maybe something like ‘Propulsion Aesthetics’); here’s a skill to V that unlocks increasing complexities of decals (ie. ‘Insignia Design’), etc. etc. I just think there’s a lot of room there to allow for a better designer space.

Of course, another possible way forward, if the majority of players wince at more skill gates, could involve more direct authorship and maybe even hand-drawn elements, but that’s an entirely different ball of wax…

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Due to the competing nature of SKINR vs. CCP-released SKINs, I don’t think rendering SKINs with Evermarks is in the cards. There were some hints at possible enhancements to SKINR in August, so we’ll see.

I don’t see hand-drawn (or submitted) elements for a variety of reasons (EULA, copyright, profanity, etc.) - for much the same reason alliance logos and billboard ads need to go through an approval process at CCP. I can’t even begin to imagine the deluge of player-submitted artwork if that was ever an option…

Not that I’m against the idea (being able to emblazon my Kronos with a white skull and “Abandon All Hope” written on the side al la ‘Chiggy Von Richtoften’ would be the ultimate design goal for me).

I’d love to see some more really exclusive patterns (or emblems, if CCP opted to go that route) and design elements that could drop in-game. Right now we only have the original slate that was launched with SKINR (all new design elements have come through the NES store).

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Definitely true and agreed to the above. Evermarks could make for an uneven landscape with what they seem to be trying to accomplish with playermade vs. CCPmade. Hand-drawn comes with severe caveats; though, some personal authorship would be nice, particularly to help carve a more visual brand identity. Purported changes later this month. Fingers crossed.

Ultimately, as you suggest, it’s just all about refreshing the system with new, exclusive elements, and the “Paragon of…” packs don’t seem all that enticing to keep the marketplace fresh. Though, what’s more, the storefronts (IMO) still seem to need plenty of adjustments to have the kind of visibility that would even be helped by new materials when they hit the market. If I go out and purchase one of those paragon packs, which would be an expensive stretch after already losing a good amount of ISK on elements that probably aren’t that impactful now, there isn’t really much in the marketplace that helps players find that I’ve done that or find that I’ve used those elements in a sequenced design. It’s crucial that the way players see and navigate these stores actually allows for products to be seen in the first place.

Designer-specific storefronts would help. Formal and visible discount/flash-sale capabilities would help. Designer subscription/licensing services would help. There’s a lot of possibility. I hope they’re able to keep pace against what seems to be floundering demand.

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I can see where they were trying to go with Evermarks from a corporate/alliance standpoint. Quite a few players have accumulated an obscene amount of Evermarks which they can never hope to spend, so it would certainly be nice if the “personalization” options could be expanded with Evermarks.

The paragon packs are a little… underwhelming. The set of limited colors and pattern are nice, but I think they could benefit with the addition of the sequencers as well for the same pricing structure. Some alternate exclusive “custom” elements (engine glows, hull lighting) could really make these packs enticing.

There’s a new post re: one of the SKINR skills that I haven’t responded to yet, but the Op brings up some good points. An alternate (or companion) suggestion would be to reduce the sequencer cost with some of those skills.

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Yeah, definitely true about the Evermarks. I feel like that kind of capability just wouldn’t be that far from how Evermarks work anyway. An added benefit is that it would create a better tier system that includes, as we’ve mentioned, highly accessible personal options, in addition to more premium, higher cost elements sourced from skill-invested designers.

And yeah, the packs seem ~15-20% less enticing than they should be at least. I don’t think they should include unlimited nanos or patterns necessarily, but stuff like, as you say, engine glows, hull lighting – that’s what people actually want from that kind of pack. Even better, if those kinds of elements included some kind of highlighting/tagging feature for listings (ie. when a player browses the hub, listings that include engine glows maybe have a different badge or notification within the UI that says, ‘this product include glow effects!’) they would be even more enticing. Stashing some kind of faction-specific pattern in a single layer on relatively simple color without anything other than an eye-test to convince people to check it out just doesn’t really cut it for $45.

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A week in - no SKIN sales. This doesn’t feel like it bodes well for SKINR in the future… Since designs can be somewhat replicated, it’s really hard to offer anything “unique” - even if reasonably priced.

It really feels like we need something exclusive for designers. Like a pack of unique, unlimited patterns and colors that can’t be re-sold (only redeemable per account) and only bought for $$.

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I’ve got a couple of sales this week, but only after dramatically cutting my normal prices down to move product, so it seems like there’s at least a miserly demand out there somewhere. I’ll need to go back and check the exact sale times later today, but my kneejerk guess is that they were both sales made overnight. The sales are very welcome, but they don’t do much to assuage my concerns.

And I totally agree with you; it’s really hard to offer anything truly “unique” as a designer, and there have been moments when I wish scarcity was protected by CCP more than it had been. For example, especially now that we have dozens more save slots, I actually wish the community didn’t have shareable pattern position information at all - at all. I think the relative ease with which non-skill-invested players can just copy what others have made mostly undermines the way SKINR should ideally work, and being to plug in a quick recipe to sidestep the need to pay designers for the ways in which they figure out interesting creative solutions with nanos and patterns seems to just defeat most of the purpose of what we’re doing here.

But again, squeaky wheels and all that…

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I’m going to try producing some non-Marauder SKINs to see if that perks more interest. Right now I’m pricing SKINs at 10% over cost (excluding design elements and sequencers, so it’s probably closer to 5% profit in all actuality if I were to factor that in). I’m not even including the billions of design elements or skills invested to-date…

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If not Marauder, I might recommend one of the popular HAC or Logi as your next move. The thought I have in mind constantly now is whether or not the hull I’m designing toward is something that will be seen often in by pilots as they sit docked and browsing the Paragon Hub in their ship.

As for pricing, mostly because of our intense startup cost, I’m just so nervous about dipping beneath 10%, and so I usually stay well above that when I can. This is also in an effort to promote (or maybe even preserve…?) premium pricing and the market-healthy cost of consumers relying on designers with better investments to make cool skins. Because of that, the pricepoints of skins should reflect the direct cost we as designers incur, sure, and it should be north of that by 5-10% at least, but I also try to factor in the peripherals of what it would cost a player that hasn’t yet invested in sequencing to get a skin immediately without the help of a commercial sequencer.

Essentially, my baseline pricing is usually 90% of the following cost info…

How much plex would it cost to initiate the sequence based on tier level?
What’s the listing fee? What’s the tax rate?
How much plex would each nano/pattern element cost on their own?
How much ISK would it cost to purchase the sequencer elements?
And very important: how much plex would it cost to “Complete Now” the skin to have it immediately?

(And then maybe the following cost info as well, if I thought to purchase in limited-time elements that come from the paragon packs…)

How much more in plex is this nano/pattern worth versus more regular options, considering it might not come back via paragon packs for a while?

**
Once I have all of that tallied up, my minimum is justifiably around 90% of that figure.

And the reason why I point this out is that it all indicates the fragility of pricing in the event that big changes happen that allow people with little-to-no SP investment to skin out easily.

Very important in my model, for example, is the cost of the “Complete Now”, which obviously exists as a foil to how long a skin takes to sequence, particularly if you have zero SP invested into sequencing, insofar that it allows players to say, “No thanks, I’d rather not wait X amount of days…”. As a designer, I can then justifiably say, “Okay, you want this custom skin immediately, so I’m going to incorporate a fraction of CCP’s ‘Complete Now’ tax as a convenience fee, but you’re still paying less than what you’d pay on your own.” Everyone wins, but only if the friction of the sequencing time exists. The less people need to wait, the less “Complete Now” matters, and the closer folks like you and I end up to charges hair-thin margins above cost.

TL;DR – For SKINR to work, pricing needs to be justifiably more than designerside cost math, and broadly reducing the time it takes for anyone to sequence something chips away at the foundations of that idea.

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Lots of new SKINR changes today - including the ability to cancel listings! (not sure where we’re at with the SKINR pattern bug)

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I believe that pesky bug was stomped out!

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Ohhh, being able to cancel listings is huge. Very pleased with that and many of the other changes today. Being able to preview unowned colors and being able to arrange by hue are particularly good.

I still worry about scarcity balance, and now being able to freely share designs might become a detrimental factor in that eventually, but these are nice QoL bumps in the meantime.

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Just saw this on Reddit from CCP_Goliath re: selling SKINS to alts, etc.

“Yeah. Not having been able to include it from the start was not optimal but a remedy for this is forthcoming. You will be able to create a listing visible only to a specific individual.”

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We really need some more colors and patterns.

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Just watched the SKINR event (mini-update?) on the EVE Discord channel. For those that missed it, these SKINR upgrades are slated (*) for the Winter expansion:

• 2nd pattern, blend mode (subtract, exclude, nest, invert, etc.)
• 30+ new patterns that will drop in space (more limited colors/patterns through events, NES)
• Private listings (corporations/alliances can use Evermarks in lieu of fees involving the Brand Manager)
• Randomize button
• Additional skills (3?); some will reduce listing tax further
• No ETA on the pattern editing bug/glitch (still trying to resolve it)

They discussed a search feature (they would like, but apparently a huge effort to implement) and that they would also like input number boxes for the pattern variables (which seemed more doable). Neither of these would likely make it into the Winter expansion, though.

Lastly, they indicated that there was a “stealth nerf” to listing times and sequencing costs (no specifics) over the summer and that they’re still reviewing the data.

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Whoops, I must have missed this reply, but it’s good timing that I’ve come back to find it now. Looks like we’ll be getting those changes as predicted – they’re really great changes! With these coming through for November, the only remaining changes/tweaks I can think of recommending from here involve better staging and visibility for listings. For example, I’d love a situation where designers can write descriptive blurbs for the lines they develop and to be able to mark certain skins as limited editions or being on-sale depending on how they’ve been made or how long they’ve sat in stock.

Also, must have missed the line about the “stealth nerf” when it was implemented. I’ve talked at length across a few posts – this one included – about the caveats of lowering sequence duration and costs. Through the lens of wanting to keep a healthy, competitive marketplace, there is such a thing as too accessible for players that decided against investing in skills. Fingers crossed that we never pass that threshold.