I don’t see why AG couldn’t do that now. Especially since they have more time for prepare while a target is bumped.
I also don’t get why the gankers would need tags, there is no need to camp a gates. And even though you say that bumping is your only concern you raised now at least two other points you think are an issue (fleet hangar looting and tags). So are they an issue or not? Any other issues with ganking we need to know about?
Highsec is the place where the most wealth is traded and shipped around. It has a lot of players that are pretty careless and rich at the same time. The reason you are looking for is called “Piracy”.
A lot of the PvP in EVE has to do with economic or territorial objectives and isn’t an arena stile PvP where you have “fair” fights like in other games.
In general it isn’t super helpful for anyone and especially yourself to just ignore that reality and act as if this is all about proving some combat skills to each other. This isn’t a MOBA, it is a PvP sandbox.
You are having a laugh. All they have to do is stack up multiple bumped targets and they can pick and chose who they gank. This happened multiple times to me when I was doing logi. As I said it is too strong an advantage.
Because security tags will enable them to get their security status to a level so that the fac police would not get in their way. So they could hang at gates and make it easier to gank. @Bladewise knew that the option for easy play would straight away be the additional cost of tags. As I said they are only interested in easy industrial min / max play.
Loot scooping via a DST is another one of their avoid consequences. But I can live with that if there is no bumping. Tags as I mentioned to you are a buff to ganking, along with catalyst DPS, Tornado’s, DST fleet bays, freighter wreck ehp increase, I can go on you know.
Duh. Reading comprehension FTW. I am not complaining about PvP, about unfair fights, about ganking.
If you want to deal with a situation, or resolve a problem, or improve a game, you have to first recognize the actual reality of the situation. Not the “gee I wish it was this way” version, or the “gosh if only we could go back to the way it was 8 years ago” version, or even the “this is the image I like to pretend I really am!” version.
The constant stream of “you nerfed PvP!”, “CCP is pandering to the carebears”, “EVE is dying because PVP doesn’t really exist any more”… aren’t talking about PVP. What they are all bemoaning, exactly as you just pointed out, is “We need more fat, dumb, easy, profitable targets in high sec so we can get kills and make money and avoid the chance of real PVP that will happen if we dare stick our necks out in low sec”.
They want calculatable gains where they can judge the value of the target against the efforst/cost of taking them down and decide whether or not to pull the trigger. As you said, rational piracy. What they don’t want is the notion that someone else will decide they are a worthwhile target and pull the trigger on them. So yes, piracy, not PvP. Hunting for weak, profitable targets, not PvP.
Thus, we come to understand that the problem with EVE design, for these people, is not that PvP is discouraged or nerfed… but that the income stream of fat, easy, profitable targets in high sec is reduced. That is the actual complaint.
Now we can ignore all the puffed up posturing of “EVE is for hard core players”, “High sec isn’t for carebears”, “CCP nerfed PVP into the ground”, and focus on “Why isn’t EVE providing a steady stream of fat easy profitable targets for the weaksauce pirates who need this income/target stream to get their jollies from?”.
Well, that seems like a good tactic if you have people with logi on grid. Classic distraction or to thin the coverage. I don’t see how that is unimaginitive gameplay, quite the contrary. On the other hand I have to ask what effort AG went trough to counter this strategy. Surely you can’t think that just sitting on the gate with everything always in rep range and no effort required at all isn’t interesting or imaginative gameplay, but it quite sounds like that is what you want.
I still don’t see why they would be required to camp a gate. They have Citadels on grid with tethered fleets immune to facpo (was surprised that wasn’t on your list) ready to warp to a target at any time. Gankers who camp gates usually use long range weapons anyway and not Cats, but for a Freighter, even with limited or without bumps they will be fast enough on grid to continue ganking at -10.
And that is a bad thing? Sounds like a good business model to me. There are probably better options though, but it is certainly one of the more interesting ones.
I mean you yourself think it isn’t PvP, so why compare it to that anyway? If it isn’t PvP why not compare it to mining or mission running and compare the effort difficulty and reward to those professions? I don’t think that the spoils of ganking freighters, which is probably the only form of profitable ganking left is far below that of a comparable fleet of AFK miners.
If we put that together I would say that piracy is one of the lesser profitable activities you can embark on in highsec but compared to the other forms like mission running or mining it is probably a lot more challenging, logistic intensive and interesting.
Kezrai
One-sided ganking is PvE. It’s the same thing as over-geared players downing predictable monsters in a dungeon in a fantasy-themed game.
The most interesting difference is a huge weakness for EVE’s pretend-PvP. Computer programs don’t get bored - there’s no need for a stream of people with a high threshold of boredom to keep the carousel spinning.
If the pretend-PvPers want combat, all they need to do is attack each other - they’re not in short supply.
Evasion is a part of many games.
The way you snub your nose at evading pvp is your snowflake problem. All good games have at least an occasional element of cat and mouse where a powerful player or group of players hunt others.
For non-pvp’rs, eve could be a resource gathering/survival game. Why not?
You hit the nail on the head here. Pvp’ing where it is tricky to do so. It’s a different set of rules with a different host of players. Capitals and blob warfare are boring to many people. High sec is good (or was good) for new pvp’rs wanting to learn pvp mechanics in a controlled environment.
The necessity of pvp in high-sec is becuase high-sec creates a lot of resources and has a big effect on the economy.
Now let me turn your question back on itself;
Why are people who aren’t interested in pvp playing a pvp sandbox?
No, nerfing decs and crimewatch was the reason for the drop in players.
And decs were nerfed again December just gone. Looked what happened to player activity then.
Do you see what you’ve done here?
Obviously not.
You snub your nose at evasion and suggest its not gameplay. But it is.
Yes, of course, this is it exactly. It’s what Karak Terrel isn’t cluing in to, because he seems to only be reading (or comprehending) 3 sentences out of each post.
I’m not saying piracy should happen or shouldn’t happen, that it is different or the same as other activities, that it is better or worse.
@Karak Terrel and others; think of it this way. EVE, or any game, is an ecosystem. It needs seeds to sprout, it needs fertilizers to encourage them to grow, it needs management to ensure a healthy harvest. All this needs to be done before any ‘harvest’ can be reaped. Whether your harvest is manufactured items, or profits from hauling/trading, or kills and loot drops, if seeds are not planted and encouraged to grow, there will be no harvest.
Eat your seed corn? No harvest. Pull and eat the tender shoots just as they are becoming visible? No harvest. Harvest and consume all the available ‘mature’ items so that there are none there to encourage/breed more seedlings? No harvest. (See Collapse of Cod Fishery for RL examples)
Whether piracy is good, bad, or indifferent, it is dependent upon the steady flow of fat, rich, easy targets, in high sec, where the ‘pirates’ themselves are safe from PVPers who would prey on them.
If you are concerned about ‘where did the PvP go?’, which really means ‘why did the flow of easy high sec targets stop’, you have to ask ‘Why would anyone continue to be a fat easy safe target for pirates to prey upon, and where does the next generation of fat easy safe targets come from?’
Weaksauce PvP ‘pirates’, and PvPers in general, seem to be completely clueless to this notion of ‘Why does hunting and killing every easy target I can find end up killing off PvP? It’s fun and profitable for me, therefore it obviously should continue!’. Apparently not many PvPers are actual hunters, or they’d know you don’t kill off the mothers and kids and then expect hunting to be good next year.
They are.
70% of players are in hi-sec (which is a smaller area than low and null).
So most of the players are concentrated in a small area where pvp is ‘tricky’, the rest are shared between low sec, null sec and wormholes.
But this is irrelevant anyways. Just because you don’t want to be shot doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be. For the sake of the game, it’s simply a good thing for you to get shot wherever you may be.
Go and watch the talking in station discussion with Kusion, you will see that he was an indy player before getting into freighter ganking, so for him it Is absolutely all min / max farming.
So you just want it impossible to counter and give all the advantages to gankers. Well done, I think you are just the same as them, min / max farmer.
Also you have no idea about freighter ganking and it’s counters and the interplay between them and AG players.
And by the way you might not have noticed but I also suggested that freighters get to be able to fit a BS sized MWD, there was a reason for that.
Following your analogy, would a Freighter with billions of ISK in stuff in it more be on the seed or on the ‘mature’ side?
Where did I say or even imply that? I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion honestly.
There is probably a lot I don’t know about, but I can only learn when you point out where I made the error in thinking.
So get rid of bumping AND an MWD for freighters to fix the problem? Anything else?
Turn this around and look at it from the perspective of the pvp’rs as well.
The ‘food’ is being increasingly locked away behind more and more convoluted mechanics and pvp’rs are starving.
The starting area (highsec) has a huge entry barrier to pvp. Low sec and null are the domain of large established groups.
The very reasons given for allowing nooby mcnoob the miner to find content and flourish in his 1-man corp in a controlled environment are ignored when it comes to noobert mc nooby the pvp’r who wants to find entry level pvp in a controlled environment.
Daichi
A group of PvPers who want more combat aren’t in short supply until there’s only one left.
On the other hand, a group of “gank or run” pseudo-PvPers (real gamer-world meaning of “gank”) has a problem as soon as their victims become too good at avoidance.
I would say on the ‘mature’ side. Seeds are people being encouraged to enter EVE and try it out. (This process is an entire issue on its’ own, as EVE has significant ‘attractors’ and ‘detractors’ among the wider gaming community which affects the ‘decide to try’ process)
Sprouts are people who did not very quickly decide EVE wasn’t for them - which is actually a large portion of the seed crop of any MMO. They finish the tutorial, start heading out of the starter systems, start asking in Help chat ‘where do I go? what do I do next? How do I get a bigger ship? Any corps I can join?’
Mature ‘targets’ are those established and earning rewards and providing direction to sprouts. “I earn 10 million an hour doing X”. “My corp is recruiting, here, we can help you out”. However, in the context of this discussion (fat easy safe targets in high sec), those matures have to be operating and visible in high sec. If everyone new is being told “Go to null sec and join an alliance” (which is pretty much what is happening on a consistent basis, in game, for years now), then you are removing those sprouts from the harvest process, and sending them to the safest, most carefully managed, most profitable, least likely to engage in random PvP (or piracy) sector of the game.
Hence the decline of high sec targets, and the rise of ridiculous, game-breaking amounts of farming, ISK creation, and resource/products coming out of Null safety zones.
Of course they are.
The vast majority of pvp in eve is non-consensual. Pvp’rs don’t chat with eachother and arrange fights (or rarely they do), they burn down eachothers homes and force fights.
That’s how sandbox pvp happens. Not seeking eachother out, but by forcing meaningful decisions like; show up or lose something important or ambushing eachother.