Oh so you’re speaking for Scoots now?
Somebody made a statement that CCP has lost Dev’s and that new Dev’s were focused on ‘Battle Royal’ type gameplay. Scoots reply gave the impression that it wasn’t true. Only CCP employees know for sure.
Anyway, my question was directed to him, not you.
I think I’ve come up with an explanation clear enough to help everybody understand what exactly will happen in regards to tanking after the changes.
Each resistance component Rn, regardless of the origin, reduces damage taken by a (1 - Rn × Pn) multiplicative factor applied to the incoming damage, where Rn is the value of the resistance attribute of the component normalised to 1 and Pn is the stacking penalty applied to that component, if any.
For example, a non stacking penalised (P1 = 1) component with resistance attribute R1 = 30% = 0.3 reduces incoming damage by a (1 - 1 × 0.3) = 0.7 multiplicative factor.
The general formula is as follows:
dmg_taken = dmg_incoming × (1 - R0) (1 - R1×P1) (1 - R2×P2) …
where the first component R0 is the base resistance value provided by the ship, which may depend on ship bonuses and skills, but is not affected by the change.
Now, the effect of the change will be the multiplication of the Rn values in that formula by a 0.8 factor for the resists that are provided by mods affected by the change, e.g. if component 1 is affected by the change, but component 2 isn’t, the damage taken after the change will become:
dmg_taken = dmg_incoming × (1 - R0) (1 - 0.8×R1×P1) (1 - R2×P2) …
To see the relative effect of the changes on tanking, we need to divide (not subtract) the damage taken after the changes by the damage taken before the changes.
Since the effect of each component is multiplicative, the factors associated to components not affected by the changes cancel each other when doing the division, and only factors provided by components affected by the change remain, leaving the relative change in damage taken as follows, where now only terms corresponding to mods affected by the change are taken into consideration:
relative_change = (1 - 0.8×R1×P1) (1 - 0.8×R2×P2)… / (1 - R1×P1) (1 - R2×P2) …
which can be rearranged and written as follows:
relative_change = ((1 - 0.8×R1×P1) / (1 - R1×P1)) × ((1 - 0.8×R2×P2) / (1 - R2×P2)) …
This shows several things:
(1) the relative increase in the damage taken does not depend on the value of the resists provided by components that are not affected by the change
(2) the total relative increase in the damage taken is the product of the relative increase caused by each of the resist components affected by the change, which is given by the formula:
(1 - 0.8×Rn×Pn) / (1 - Rn×Pn)
where Rn is the resistance attribute before the changes, and Pn the stacking penalty, if any.
(3) the greater the number of resist mods affected by the change that are used for a given damage type, the greater the relative increase in the damage taken will be for that damage type
Also, the value of (1 - 0.8×Rn×Pn) / (1 - Rn×Pn) increases as the value of Rn increases, which leads to:
(4) the higher the resist, the higher the relative increase in the damage taken becomes
Let’s see some examples.
A non stack penalised mod with a 60% resist attribute affected by the change will cause the damage taken to be increased by a factor:
(1 - 0.8 × 0.6) / (1 - 0.6) = 1.3
which is a 30% increase in the damage taken caused by that mod alone.
If the resist attribute is 30% instead, the damage taken will increase by a factor
(1 - 0.8 × 0.3) / (1 - 0.3) = 1.086
which is a much lower 8.6% increase in the damage taken.
If we have the two mods above fitted and a stack penalty of 0.869 applies to the second, its effect on the damage taken would be modified to be:
(1 - 0.8 × 0.3 × 0.869) / (1 - 0.3 × 0.869) = 1.07
and the combined effect would be an increase in the damage taken by a factor of 1.3 × 1.07 = 1.391, i.e. a 39.1% increase.
So does this mean you won’t be able to do PvE content you could do before? Depends.
Fits that relied on high resist mods for tanking will take significantly more damage after the change, but it may not matter much if they were overtanked, as is often the case for battleships running L4 missions with good skills, for example.
You may have or want to change your fit, ship and/or tactics, so you don’t rely so heavily on resist mods for tanking, but in most cases you’ll still be able to run the same PvE content as before, just maybe not the same way you could do it before.
The problem will be high end PvE content for which no alternative to high resist fits exist or has been figured yet. CCP may need to make some adjustments to those in order for them to be doable again.
Scoots can speak for himself, I’m speaking for me and telling you to not be stupid, that clearly he wasn’t saying that CCP has had zero turnover, like you tried to pretend he was saying, as it’s obvious they have had some turnover.
Trying to pick holes in an argument you clearly understood just because of a semantic phrase is a childs argument.
Edited in so you can’t claim you said something else.
The only stupid one here is you since his reply implied there’s been no change.
Which is exactly what you’re doing.
Now stop whiteknighting for Scoots, he’s more than capable to do it himself.
Note the second part of the text he quoted…
Note how you totally ignored any possibility that was what he was addressing and instead tried to make it all about the first part.
Note how this isn’t semantics because I’m not debating about a single word, but your entire statement.
And note how you are still stubbornly trying to insist on your point despite how obviously wrong it is…
And then think about why someone other than Scoots might care about your argument or lack of it here.
To address this part, we also know with regards to this update, because CCP employees told us why these changes are happening and what they hope to see from them. Now, they might be wrong about what they will see from them, this is possible, but to disbelieve their reasons when they’ve clearly told us in both this dev blog & the previous dev blog about the current quadrant… is to try and call CCP a liar.
And that is what everyone who comes up with these tinfoil ideas about why CCP has done this is doing.
He quoted a section of text and his reply implied it wasn’t correct so I asked for clarification…
Now stop throwing in all kinds of assumptions with your insane ranting, all you’re doing is tilting at windmills like some demented Don Quixote trying so desperately to be a white knight.
And there is the buzz word bingo I was looking for with the accusation of being insane, thanks for completing my forum bingo card of your bad arguments.
And you’re really reaching now, trying to make mountains out of molehills.
Good luck on your next attempt.
It’s the only way that makes sense. The resistances are not added raw to the the values of the ship, they are used in a complex formula. So you compare the effective incoming DPS before and after the patch. and since the invuls work multiplicatively, you compare the factor of tank that you lose.
your “baseline” makes no sense.
If you literally takes 2.5 times as much damage, that means your rep power has been divided by 2.5 times. That means, you can tank 2.5 times less incoming damage. 1/2.5 = 0.4 : you lost 60% of your rep.
If before, you could tank 100 DPS, now you can tank 40 DPS .
If before, you could tank 1000 DPS, now you can tank 400 DPS.
That’s why I say BS.
You have no idea. I have fits that lost 50% tank. That means that before they could tank 2k face DPS (brawler fit) and now they can only tank 1k face DPS : they will break in the missions they are supposed to do.
i’m not going to say that the incursions arent good isk because they are, I did them myself for like 3 years but they are not the best pve income by a long shot, those monthly economic reports show that, bounties are clearly the stand out pve cash source (50t vs 11.7t in feb). The thing thats most broken about incursions if anything is that of that 11.7t its funneled into a fairly small subset of players. HQ’s are the primary fleet types, thats 40 players, obviously players log out and others log in throughout the 24 hour period of each day but still its a small selection, perhaps 1000 players or less.
A potential way to balance incursion payout would be to increase fleet sizes and reduce isk per person so what money is being generated is being spread across more players. More people get a little bit richer instead of a small sliver of players get 11.7 trillion isk richer.
Also what is “Oasa” and “Delve”? those 2 regions make up 12.5 trillion of all bounties in the entire game, thats more than all of incursions in the entire game (speaking for the month of feb not all time ever).
The baseline is the tank at default resists. That’s why it’s called the baseline. While your logic itself is not incorrect, it’s a misleading way of explaining this nerf, because it so heavily relies on your own fringe case (as we’ll get to in a second) in order to scare people with a much bigger number.
The 50% figure is vastly exaggerated in practice. It would require stacking top-end deadspace gear four-deep on a single resist type to even come close.
And guess what? If this is the argument that you want to make, then this change was aimed directly at you to begin with, because you’ve mathed and walleted your way into an unintentional feature of this game’s design that allows you to do high-end group content alone. You are literally the reason why CCP is doing this.
You are exactly right, and that is exactly my issue with incursions. Bounties might outnumber incursion payments five to one, but they are a much less concentrated faucet, which feeds many more people. Null ratters might make more cash overall, but that cash is going toward massive fleet battles, stations, capital replacements, etc. Incursion ISK, on the other hand, goes toward inflating the prices of high-end ships, modules, and PLEX. But even that might be acceptable if at the very least incursion-running wasn’t a risk-free activity. At least null ratters can be attacked or scared into docking. Meanwhile, the only way to interfere with incursion farmers is to gank them. All of those people have sat in NPC corps since day one; we couldn’t even wardec them back when the structure requirements for wars didn’t exist.
to be fair not all, and back when i used to do them there was always the standing rule of no fleets if wardecced, most the people back then were in 1 man corps and would just close the corp and wait it out. I do recall at least a few times my corp would get wardecced and it was either a 1 man corp that never logged in, or a small corp whose pilots were active, but not online when we were lol. I disctinctly remember being issued a set of t1 hulls so if we saw them on we’d bounce into action. My actual chance of some pvp and it never happened. The downside of playing in AU timezones i guess.
These days from what i understand the main risk of isk loss comes from contests in the 1 high sec spawn lol. I reckon they’d be alot more fun if it was less money more people and perhaps more varied site types. theres potential to make it fun but with the contests now its all about min/max dps and the small numbers who can get into fleets, provided they can wait out the several hours in waitlists. I dont care much for vindicator/leshak max dps fests so I havent really done them myself since 2014, only minor dabbles here and there after which i burn out in days because its just not enjoyable anymore, even as a logi pilot.
My eve these days is scanning and anomalies and when I first learnt of the new changes I went in and checked out my active ship to find it will not even be affected by this as its tank comes from unaffected sources (i think rigs arent being affected??? lol)
A summary of bad game design all around. Literally 0 risk for such a high payout. And those people don’t even do anything worthwhile with their ISK, aside from hoarding giant stashes of PLEX. No purpose in playing aside from farming money you’ll never use (at least for those who don’t RMT it away) except to buy time to farm even more money, and repeat that cycle ad infinitum.
You even had risk-free PvP to go along with it all, since you could just roll over your corporation if you got into any real trouble.
Just for the record, my issue isn’t with you, but with CCP for making this possible.
i dont do incursions anymore really I have tried over the years since i really stopped hardcore playing and i always end up burning out and giving up. Because of when I play typically theres not really much for me content-wise, but this is the only decent spaceshippy game I know of, untill microsoft relents and allows gog to release a digital version of freelancer… lol
It is a change, but it is not just “generic” modules. It is a “20% reduction in the power of ALL modules that increase shield or armor resistances.” So every module in the game, T1/T2/Faction/etc, will be getting a 20% nerf to the resistances they provide. I am not complaining about the change at all but I felt that this should be clarified.
It will be interesting to see how this affects my assault frig activities. I guess I should see how I can do what I normally do with base modules before this goes live to see if I can even handle that drop in resistance. Thank you for the math. I understand the theory but actually suck once I start looking at the numbers in a line.
thank you, but when i said generic what i meant was these modules are not specific to any one class, race, or type of ship so it shouldn’t impact balance between ships/classes very much. For me it looks like a nerf to blingy fits, logi gangs and some op crap like the omnipotent gila which is a plus, yes it’s also a nerf to some other pve and i mostly only do pve now so i don’t like it but that’s okay we just go back to the drawing board.
I’m not particularly for or against the resist changes, I don’t know about capital ship balance, but the battleship/marauder/short range ammo makes this a good update overall for subcaps.
Thanks CCP for identifying a problem with conflict stagnation and putting together a good solution for it.
Hopefully all the people complaining will learn to take a breath and get down to strategizing to adapt to the new era of Eve Online, instead of wanting everything to stay the same for the next 20 years.
And just content will be removed because no more doable.
Literally.
Why would you even try to do something that required a 5B ship, and still had a chance to lose that ship, after it’s been DOUBLED its DPS and you can’t DOUBLE your tank to hold it ?
I don’t know how this is a “good” solution. I don’t even understand how this is a solution at all.
I mean, if the buffer is reduced (which is the case for PVP) people will just bring more alpha than tacticalships. Which is already the trend : bring more alpha ships, you won’t even need to do anything else than F1.