T3C Mission running, Loki vs Legion


(Furione) #1

Hello all,

I want to run level 3 and 4 missions with a T3C, mostly in High Sec and in caldari/gallente regions.

Right now I can fly both the Loki and the Legion (I cannot fly the tengu, it will be more than a month away), both my armor and shield tank skills are good, but i can use only T2 HAM and HML, and my gunnery skills are awful.
Also, I have good drone skills

Any advice on the best missile mission runner between loki and legion, and maybe some fits I can try out?

Thank you!


(Solonius Rex) #2

Legion is good. Legion is great. Legion will fall, but surely you’ll wait.


(Zhilia Mann) #3

If you’re locked into missiles, I’d choose the Loki over the Legion any day. Something like this should do you well:

[Loki, L4]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

Loki Propulsion - Wake Limiter
Loki Offensive - Launcher Efficiency Configuration
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Defense Node
Loki Core - Dissolution Sequencer

You can afford to swap out the hyperspatials to downgrade some modules, but I’d more or less stick with the shield booster. An A-type should be fine, but I wouldn’t go down to a C-type for instance.

A similar Legion suffers classic split weapon system problems and lacks any range bonus at all on the missiles. This, for instance, pumps out more paper DPS:

[Legion, HAM L4]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Drone Damage Amplifier II

50MN Microwarpdrive II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Assault Missile
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Legion Core - Augmented Antimatter Reactor
Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

Hammerhead II x5

… but the missiles have 85% of the range and over a third of the DPS is in drones. Neither of which is good for running missions.


(Owen Levanth) #4

I made a similar Legion fit recently, just a lot slower and with two medium reps instead of one. Thanks to an additional nos that thing can tank an astonishing amount of punishment, which makes it survive traveling from battleship to battleship (It has an Fed afterburner instead of a MWD.).

Since I’m silly, the ship is also omnitanked to all hell. Strangely enough, with my missile and drone skills both near max I have less then 25% of my DPS in drones. The rest is all missiles.

You’d think that this slow, overtanked Legion would be even worse than your fit, but I’ve tested it in the Gallente Epic Arc and it mows down ships left and right like there’s no tomorrow. As long as you don’t leave your drones out all the time the rats seem to ignore them most of the time, so no trouble there, either.

In fact, the only trouble I ran into was in locking ships fast enough. Sometimes ships died fast enough re-locking new targets got kind of hectic.

Anyway, while the Loki is good, I kind of prefer my armored monster. OP, since you have good drone skills, you should really think about trying a HAM-Legion. If used right, that ship is a beast.


(Furione) #5

Thank you very much for your advice @Zhilia_Mann.

Yes I’m locked to missile because they are the only T2 weapon system I’ve learned right now.
I’m working to raise my gunnery skills right now (lokks like they are more useful for a T3 mission runner), but now I have another doubt: wich one to learn first?

Having T2 lasers vs. projectiles move the prefernce to legion?

@Owen_Levanth can you share your fit?
Doing Epic Arcs is another milestone I’d like to reach :slight_smile:


(Owen Levanth) #6

Sure, I’m using this right now:

[Legion, Hailstorm II]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Crosslink Compact Ballistic Control System

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Astro-Inertial Compact Missile Guidance Computer
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Salvager II -> is actually a medium deadspace NOS, one early Gallente Epic Arc mission needs a salvager
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Medium Anti-Thermal Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Legion Core - Augmented Antimatter Reactor
Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

Hornet II x5
Vespa II x5
Medium Hull Maintenance Bot I x3
Acolyte II x3
Salvage Drone I x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x3

Nova Javelin Heavy Assault Missile x2775
Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile x3205
Scourge Javelin Heavy Assault Missile x2720
Missile Range Script x1
Missile Precision Script x1
Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile x2890

Edit:
Mostly you’ll fight stuff weak against explosive or kinetic damage in the Gallente Epic Arc, so this loadout is heavily geared towards this. All non-combat drones like the ECM-ones are absolutely optional. I just have them on there just in case I need them (translation: I like them and want to get some use out of the skills I trained for them)

The cross-link ballistic control system can easily be another faction one, I was just min-maxing costs and CPU-usage here. The jump clone I’m using for this fit has a full set of mid-grade Asklepian implants, which makes the tank even more overkill and has an +3% CPU implant, so you’ll at least need that one too, or more money for some more faction modules with easier fitting.

The NOS becomes actually useful if you keep that slow-ass afterburner, because cruising between battleships is the one major drawback, as you tend to get a lot of fire thrown your way when flying around. On the other hand: All the small stuff tends to glue themselves to you in transit, which allows you to mow them down in mid-flight most of the time. So interestingly, you don’t actually lose much time when compared to a MWD-fit.

For your own missions, just exchange drones and ammunition as needed. The fit has 829 DPS all in all, 214 of it in drones. (The last part of course changes with the drones, this is for Vespa IIs.)

The tank is incredibly lazy fire-and-forget: You can just leave it like this and blindly wander into every possible kind of mission, as long as you don’t forget to switch on your modules you’re safe. In fact, if you put a warp scrambler and a web in the midslots, you’ll actually have a usable, if risky PVP-fit.

Let’s just say this is me future-proofing my Legion in case CCP upgrades more of the rat AI in the future. :laughing:


(Owen Levanth) #7

Except for Burner-missions. Forgot about those. If there are any cruiser-sized Burner missions which allow strategic cruisers, this fit is definitely not tested for them.


(Zhilia Mann) #8

Which implants are you counting? Which ammo?

I’m showing 562 with Rage if I factor reload; 785 with Vespa IIs included. 5% implants in 7 and 10 drive that up to 620.

In general, I don’t like to quote Rage numbers out of context. CN looks like it pushes 528 without implants, which seems more realistic. The missiles are still only going 22km, but at least most of that damage is applying to most targets.

And yeah, I could see that working relatively well for the Gallente epic arc; almost everything in there is pretty short-ranged. For general purposes I vastly prefer the ability to shoot further. Even the Loki I posted makes me uncomfortable and it’s sporting 37km with CN.

I’m actually very fond of the Legion; I just prefer mine with guns. And I don’t use it for missions; I like to run low sec combat sites. All that said, it looks something like this:

[Legion, explo typical fit]

Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Corpum B-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Corpum A-Type Energized EM Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Thermal Membrane

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Legion Core - Augmented Antimatter Reactor
Legion Defensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Wake Limiter

538 DPS at 51+16 is pretty decent; being able to bump that up to 717 at 30ish or 727 at 15 with selectable tracking combinations is rather sweet. Keeping Aurora around to blap TD frigates at range is definitely nice.

I wouldn’t use a fit like that for missions though. Having selectable damage types is too important.

Having said that, neither medium projectiles nor medium lasers are ideal for missions. Projectiles just don’t have the range/DPS combination you need (except perhaps on a Sleipnir) and lasers are too awful against Angels and Guristas for everyday use. Rails do somewhat better, but really you’ll either want to run drones (Gila or Ishtar) or move on up to large weapons (AC Machariel is still an absolute monster) for mission purposes.


(Owen Levanth) #9

I think I have the same implants, but mine are +3% in 7 and +4% in 10. The ammo was listed in the same post (rage) and with reload that’s 579 (without drones) or 793 (with drones).

The reason why I’m not quoting different numbers is that I’m not using faction ammo outside of PVP, and even then I sometimes prefer T2-ammo.

Range is not an option with this fit, of course: Even the javelins are more to kill some nuisances -Obviously I don’t want to hunt down every little frigate when some rats suddenly decide they want to stay at range. But most of the time, I orbit my targets at like 5-10km range, so the 16km rage range is enough for me. Bonus: It’s also close enough for my NOS, so if I draw heavy fire and need both reps running at the same time, I can just draw cap from my target if my own cap runs low, instead of having to warp out.

As I see it, battleships are for 250km sniping, T3Cs are for brawling up close. :smiley:


(Dark Engraver) #10

Loki if missiles


(DeMichael Crimson) #11

I’m gonna have to disagree with your statement about medium projectiles. I used a Loki fit with AC’s to easily complete all of the lv 4 Epic Arcs. The only mission I couldn’t complete solo was the very last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc due to the perma-jamming. However now that the Loki has a good missile sub-system, it should easily complete the last mission of the Caldari Epic Arc without help.


(Zhilia Mann) #12

I figured this was coming sooner or later (welcome back?). We’ve disagreed on this point before and I’m sure we will again.

I did say “ideal”. I have used both 425s and 720s and they do get the job done. However, while I really don’t mind some amount of positioning, I prefer being able to apply near max damage to the next target right away, even if I’m caught out not paying attention for a moment. 800s on, say, a Machariel more or less allow that with the extremely long falloff curve, but 425s don’t.

Having said that, I think there might be some interesting options out there with the Loki’s web bonus that could help application quite a bit. I haven’t actually tried it, but it looks pretty good on paper.


(DeMichael Crimson) #13

Thanks and yeah, we’ve had this discussion before and I’m sure we’ll have it again in the future. However this thread topic is about T3 Cruisers and which one has the best missile damage application.

Ever since the recent sub-system changes happened, I haven’t had much experience using the Loki as a missile boat. After checking 3rd party fitting apps I can definitely agree it applies more DPS than the projectile sub-system.

While missiles may apply more DPS, they do it slower than projectiles and missile munitions take up more cargo space. I think using AC’s actually helps clear the field and reduce incoming DPS a bit more quickly, especially right at the start when swamped by rat packs.

Course using missiles at long range definitely increases ship defense which allows fitting more DPS mods which probably makes completion time a lot better than when using projectiles.

Even though I’m max skilled on all sub-capital missile skills, I never really used them very much. Projectiles and AC’s are basically my go-to weapon choice since I’ve been using them for a long time.

Since I don’t want to change my implants and like using shield tanks, I came up with this Loki missile boat fit in Pyfa. Due to playing for a long time I have max level in all skills pertaining to the Loki. Also having done lot’s of exploration, I already have a large collection of Deadspace / Faction loot available so this missile fit up will be relatively cheap for me.

Loki HAM boat
Subsystem slots
Loki Defensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Loki Offensive - Launcher Efficiency Reconfiguration
Loki Propulsion - Wake Limiter
Loki Core - Augmented Nuclear Reactor

High slots
5x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II -w- Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
1x Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher -w- Sisters Core / Combat Scanner Probe
1x ‘Smokescreen’ Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
1x Salvager II

Medium slots
2x Pith A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
1x Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
1x Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
1x Gistum A-Type 10MN Afterburner

Low slots
3x Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
1x Syndicate Damage Control

Rig slots
2x Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
1x Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Drone Bay
3x Hammerhead II (Medium Scout Drone)
2x Hobgoblin II (Light Scout Drone)

Hardwired Implant slots
Slot #6 = Zainou ‘Gnome’ Shield Upgrades SU-605
(-5% power need to modules requiring Shield Upgrades skill)
Slot #7 = Zainou ‘Gnome’ Shield Management SM-705
(+5% shield capacity)
Slot #8 = Poteque ‘Prospector’ Astrometric Rangefinding AR-806
(+6% scan strength to scan probes)
Slot #9 = Zainou ‘Gnome’ Shield Operation SP-905
(+5% shield recharge rate)
Slot #10 = Zainou ‘Deadeye’ Rapid Launch RL-1005
(+5% rate of fire to all missile launchers)


(JC Mieyli) #14

people complain lasers are bad but really theyre not so bad for guristas if you you use crystals with good thermal damage and supplement with drones
they are slow on angels though but even then its not so bad if you have some real nice raw dps which is pretty easy with lasers to get 1000dps fits
lasers have always been my favourite weapon system becasue they are so cool but for pve i think projectiles are my favourite weapon system overall because they are very versatile in a number of ways
i dont think there is any problem that cant be solved with projectiles


(JC Mieyli) #15

btw when i say 1000 dps laser fits im not talking about legion specifically just talking about lasers in general
mostly nightmare abaddon paladin
you can get 1000 dps with legion too but its not practical


(system) #16

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