Just to be clear on my bias: I’ve got nothing against PvPers, I PvP in plenty of games. My actual “issue” is with blatantly poor game design that goes on for years without ever making a real effort to learn how to do it better. For some reason that irks me. If the dev company does something good, I cheer them on. If they do something stupid, I call them on it. When I’m calling them on blunders five times as much as cheering them on great moves (and every company has a mix of both), it starts to irk me.
As for the way I needle PvPers, you’ll notice it’s one specific kind - the kind who feel the need to hunt weak targets in high-sec safe space, while remaining essentially safe from attack themselves (since it’s virtually never profitable to gank a ganker). I disapprove somewhat of that playstyle, but I disapprove far more of the sheer hypocrisy these types show when then beat their chest about being the mighty, elite warriors of high-sec, burning down the carebear scum for the good of the game.
They also cry all the time about how whiny and thin-skinned high-sec “carebears” are, yet you’ll notice that the second their nonsense gets refuted in forum, they immediately fall back on anger, insults and trolling.
High-sec PvP would be find if it had some decent tools and consequences and mechanics. As it is, it’s just a cesspool for (in my mind) the most unpleasant kind of PvPer. So yes that bias is there, but it’s more because I feel they should get a taste of their own medicine occasionally, than because I care what they do. They’re a non-factor for my own EVE play.
If I recommend any changes it’s not about us vs. them, or trying to benefit my own playstyle and profits. I play so little EVE and have so much more ISK/Plex than I use that there’s no need for more. I would however like to see EVE become a little more of the game it could be, rather than the half-complete hodge-podge that CCP has let it languish in while they burn all the profits off on failed side-projects.
All of your proposals are false flag efforts to get the game to become more palatable for you, while ultimately putting the blame for everything that will go wrong on others. Because after all, how could it have been you, when you were asking for more PvP?
Well, you might do a good job of putting on a mask and convincing some people here that you’re arguing in favor of PvP, but not everyone. The rest of us see your efforts for what they really are; attempting to outsource all the fighting and dying to the PvPers, thereby leaving the “peaceful” players alone to pursue their desires without interference. And we know when someone’s doing this, because you’re not the first one to propose that EVE be turned into a PvE farming sim with an optional PvP battlegrounds thrown in.
How do you find something boring when you haven’t even really tried it?
Hey, tell us again how gankbaby high-sec PvPers are afraid of getting suspect-flagged because they’ll get shot by this third mythical unicorn group of players who aren’t either (1) the carebears too afraid of their own shadow to ever fit guns on their ships or (2) the gankbaby high-sec PvPers themselves. Surely this group exists, right? It’s probably just waiting for the right moment to strike down the evildoers. Any second now. Any second…
last few days im getting a good old ass whooping
its expensive , and it looks pretty engaging and destructy to me
i take the bill (no srp) , the fun , the engagement , the destruction
you carebears can have the victim complex , the apathy and the reason
after all you guys knows better
I would be a member of that unicorn group; if I didn’t realise that gankers provide a ready market to fill with goods; both in the form of catalysts etc, and T1 haulers, barges, associated modules and mining drones.
In short why would I shoot someone who drives demand for my products?
Yeah, I used to shoot things that other people told me to shoot because apparently that was how I was supposed to play the game. You know, kill some rats, and then use the bounty ISK to buy a Hurricane with which to “pew pew” on a “roam.”
Then I saw the Wizard of Oz, and he gave me a backbone. Now I tear out the spines (in-game) of much weaker animals like a real predator, at least when I’m not too busy working a slave-wage job and trying to self-medicate all of my real-life problems away.
Sorry, once again you’ve lost touch with the reality of the situation. Depending on context and what I’m replying to, sometimes “I” means “my character Kezrai”, sometimes it means “me as an EVE player on all my alts” and sometimes it means “me as a gamer”. I know it’s a lost cause already, but you really need to start paying more attention to things.
Well, why don’t you mix up Wardecs and Crimewatch again, and tell us how Crimewatch nerfed PvP and catered to the Carebears, but somehow also was a major benefit to the baiters who flocked back to EVE from other games to take advantage of all the new opportunities? Talk about mixing up your arguments!
Shouldn’t you be applauding CCP for introducing the excellent new Crimewatch 2.0 system, which enhanced high-sec PvP and brought record numbers of PVPers back to the game? And since 2.0 is still there, and it’s a blessing to PvPers, one wonders where they all are?
And all the “you’re not really saying what you say you’re saying, that you keep backing up with facts and data and stuff. You’re really saying something entirely else and we’re onto you. You’ll not get away with this, you villain!” stuff is getting a bit tinfoil-hatty, if you don’t mind my pointing that out. We’re just having a discussion here, even though the high-sec, safespace PvPers seem remarkably sensitive about it.
At any rate, once you stop targeting the imaginary carebear hordes in your head, and start linking up with the actual reality of the game and its history, do please continue posting. I’m sure you’ll find something relevant to post eventually if you just keep trying!
Okay, then do us all a solid, and start identifying which of your many personalities is responsible for which of your posts, or even separate sections within. It gets a bit difficult to keep track of which arguments to attribute to which of your various yous, so please make it manageable for our tiny PvP squirrel brains.
But I never said that Crimewatch nerfed PvP?
All I ever said was that it’s a dumb cop-out set of changes that put a bandage on the perceived issues with high-sec PvP without adding any meaningful systems, like a rational bounty-hunting system that we’ve been asking CCP to put into the game since it came out.
Crimewatch-centered changes did reduce the amount of types of high-sec PvP available, however. Whether that’s a nerf is moot, but at the very least, it wasn’t a positive outcome.
No, we really aren’t. We stopped having a discussion when you let your true colors shine through with your little straw-man jabs at people whose play styles you morally despise.
This isn’t a discussion. At this point, this is just you getting a Tarantino-style beatdown.
And I’m actually starting to feel quite bad about it.
Destiny Corrupted is contending that Crimewatch 2.0 was a major blessing to high sec PvP and in fact drew more PvPers in and made things easier for them. Do you have some reference for subsequent nerfings after that which ‘removed entire PvP playstyles’?
I mean, I’m well aware of how many so-called PvPers cry to this day about the removal of can-flipping, even though that was an eminently logical change. And of course there’s the Inferno wardec changes (that Destiny thought were Crimewatch) to consider. Hopefully you’ve got something more than that to add to the pot.
It’s also kind of sad that, being entirely defeated on the logic and fact front, Destiny and Tutucox had to resort to “OMG! When someone makes a post about your characters kill history, you use “I” to mean your character Kezrai, and when you talk about EVE game design, “I” means all your accounts, and when you talk about your gaming history, “I” means you as a person, and we can’t keep track of it aaall and it’s crazy! Please draw diagrams so we know what’s happening!”.
(Although at least Tutucox’s was funny rather than pathetic, so he got another like.)
Like, seriously, I present facts, figures, and conclusions, and the only thing these people can come back with is ad hominem attacks? The PvP case here in EVE is way, way shakier than I thought it was if this is the best they can do.
With luck, Jonah, perhaps you can help save them a little by tossing valid “PvP nerfing” changes in for us to think about. Since I’m actually recommending improving and re-vitalizing PvP (and destruction) in a way that brings more to the table for all players (well except the gankers hiding in bushes outside of town, maybe), knowing exactly what CCP did to destroy PvP playstyles is worth considering.
Except these numbers are obviously false. Anyone who takes the time to fly around, in game, talking to people in local, finds huge groups of accounts under the control of single users, openly stating “yeah I play 12 toons, so?”
This is all they know. CCP has allowed Sols and others to troll users away from the forums for years, they can’t comprehend a world in which they have to use data and facts to prove a point, the word “carebear” is their primary argument.
Example, I used to be like you, I tried very hard to present intelligent arguments to these forums, thinking to myself, “well if I just express these thoughts in a logical fashion using proper research techniques people will have to at least admit the data is valid…” but nope, you were thinking about people, not the delusional trolls with 12 alts that live here on the eve forums.
Can we pause for a moment here? Unlike some forum posters, I actually comprehend the things I’m reading and even keep my arguments on track for more than one post at a time. And I’m pretty sure the Destiny Corrupted that posted this:
That’s you, right? From a few months back? Or did the argument change since then?
Well golly, good thing the worst stuff in these forums is my little straw-man jabs, isn’t it? I hadn’t realized we had such a well-behaved and rational crowd that tossing the occasional slur against a weak and cowardly playstyle would be considered a major infraction, but there it is. My apologies, I’ll try to rein in the aggressive foulness that is “straw-manning” in the future.
And honestly, “Tarantino-style beatdown”? I know it’s important for you to find targets you can win against, and then convince yourself you’re a mighty warrior because you win the fight you were guaranteed to win - but have you ever even seen a Tarantino beatdown? Because I’m pretty sure they don’t feature getting all your facts wrong, shouting some insults and posting some meme-faces, and then running away. That’s a little more Monty Python or maybe Marx Brothers than Tarantino, I think.
Of course, I haven’t watched all of Tarantino, so maybe I missed that one.
