The Economy isn't Broken, and Destruction is not Good

Nah man, injectors wrecked the economy. As a guilty party, I also injected several researchers because capital BPC copying at the time was profitable. When I stopped doing it some time back, I couldn’t sell any of the piles and piles and piles of copies I had lying around because the market was completely flooded. Some aspects of the economy might be okay… but a vindicator or bhaalgorn should never cost less than a bil. And then later they became rorquals, or JF’s or whatever.

REALLY what really needs to happen is aspects of the industry/economy side be completely re-jigged. But that’s another subject entirely. Sand castles and dragon’s hoards got too big and ships that used to be ‘Wow’ mean next to nothing, as evidenced by 20 titans being an acceptable loss for hot jumping into a grid. That’s been one of the biggest things killing the game is a lot of isk coming in but no upper end ways to suck it back out.

To be clear, I don’t inherently disagree with your notion that legitimate PVP could be more sustainably designed, but for that to happen, we gotta wipe out several of these hoards first.

Yes, that is the entire point really. The OP was to demonstrate that the economy isn’t ‘broken’, isn’t spiralling out of control, isn’t overrun by inflation. The economy is, overall, merely too productive. ISK was way too easy to farm in Null, and resources/manufacturing also got somewhat out of hand with Null/Rorq/PI production levels.

However, an economy running ‘too rich’ can be corrected, and already was in the process of doing so. The actual problem with the economy is that most players are oriented towards wealth building and productivity (just like most humans are), and very few players are oriented towards destroying things for the sake of destruction (again, thankfully, just as few humans are IRL).

No matter what the actual details though, if your economy produces more than it consumes, for over a dozen years, you’re going to end up with those huge stockpiles of wealth and resources. It’s not hard to do the math: take 5,000 players with several alts each, all of which make a billion profit a week (that’s a small number for Null farming btw) - you’re going to end up with massive wealth in some hands.

You can try to deal with this by cranking back the wealth generation and slamming the gates on it, as CCP has. Which is a somewhat shaky position to take, when 3/4 of your player base is primarily interested in wealth generation.

You can try to increase the ‘destruction’ levels, which CCP has done by changing the rules so your citadels blow up easier, changing the rules so you need to stick a rich prize in your citadel, changing the rules so your assets get locked up in Trig space, changing the rules so random packs of death-squad NPCs roam around high-sec, warping in from random wormholes, to blow up player assets. You get the picture here, this is basically CCP telling wealth-oriented players “we let you build up all these assets but now you have too much of them, so we’re just going to change the rules until they all explode”. Which again, just discourages a big sector of the playerbase.

What really needs to change is cranking up the motivation players have to engage in battle with each other and consume excess wealth. Motivating more players to engage in more destruction will eventually whittle down excess wealth. But the point is, that won’t happen if players feel they have more to lose by engaging in combat than they stand to gain. This gain/loss balance does not need to be an ISK profit, there are other forms of motivation.

At the moment, the primary reasons to initiate combat involve profit-hunting, ego-stroking, grudge-matching, and for a small percentage, simple enjoyment of EVE combat mechanics. But most players are “wealth production oriented”, and most players will suffer a loss in combat, so without a better structured PvP system they simply have no rational or emotional reason to engage in PvP - quite the opposite in fact.

And that’s it, right there (except it’s about resources too, not just ISK). You don’t just target people’s hoards and nuke them. You give them a reason to blow big ISK or big resources on something else they want. That’s what’s missing.

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On the back end, sure. But, as it currently stands, there needs to be some reduction of the piles.

Like you said, the economy overproduced for a decade. Gonna take some hard reductions to restore a bit of balance back to that scale, otherwise it’ll be a long, drawn out(years maybe) affair. And also the mindsets won’t change if you just try to eek it out, not very quickly.

This is what people mean by ‘broken’.

So are you suggesting we have to change the motivations of the players? Or are you saying that we need to make PvP ‘productive’?

You don’t sound very enthusiastic about the former:

And the latter is counter productive to fixing the problem of too much productivity.

Then they’re getting their terms wrong, since those are two specific issues with specific fixes and not the economy as a whole. Also keep in mind the whole context of the argument please - CCP said their goals were to fix too much wealth imbalance, provide more opportunities for new players etc. So it would be more accurate to read the OP as “The economy isn’t broken in the way that CCP is saying it is, and the ‘fixes’ they’ve implemented don’t achieve their stated goals, but are aimed at other CCP goals”. However that’s a bit much for half a thread title.

You can’t change players base motivations, that is, the reasons they play games and their primary play patterns (a person who enjoys mining as a relaxing activity and has zero interest in PvP will never become a PvPer, for instance). You can change their interest level in specific activities by linking those activities to things that might mesh with their primary motivations. Just as a side note, “getting blown up in an unfair fight and losing money in the process” isn’t linked to the primary motivations of virtually anybody. And that’s what EVE PvP amounts to for the vast majority of players.

An activity can be rewarding without needing to be ‘productive’, so long as it meets some worthy game goal.

Um, what? 3/4 of your player base likes to be productive, so they’re bad for ‘fixing’ the problem of too much production? You realize that comment pretty much amounts to “We have too many productive players, so we need to get rid of those players to fix the economy”.

That’s an idea so hare-brained that really, only CCP could go for it. Which I suppose means they probably are. The rational response would be “Let’s dial back productivity somewhat to at least reduce the supply stream (as opposed to throwing a choke-hold on it), and then let’s give all these productive players some valid outlets to blow their stockpiles of ISK and resources on”.

Because honestly, the whole “get rid of players of type A and more players of type B will magically arrive to play the game” concept is irrational to the point of insanity.

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Everyone else understands what they mean when they say the ‘economy is broken’. More you’re just arguing semantics for argument sake.

The whole risk/reward system and battle on bots all ties into the economy as a whole. Referring to it as ‘the economy’ isn’t at all a stretch.

Except they have apparently achieved something. The players themselves have said the economy seems fairer since CCP have made some changes.

The 1st quarter of 2020 was mostly a good quarter for the economy. The Problem Index, which is an index put together by players’ rankings of 12 potential problem areas in EVE, shows improvement in 67% of our main problem areas which is great. There are also strong indicators that the economy is now more fair, that the value of labor is increasing and that connectivity is increasing - all positive trends.

https://www.eveonline.com/article/qcig37/Q1%20Economy%20Review

And then there was this from one of the latest dev blogs.

I’m getting the impression that your are confused as to what CCP are aiming for, and that is the most likely reason you feel that they are not achieving anything.

You even seem confused about your own arguments. Like here:

But you agree that 3/4’s of the playerbase see productivity as a worthy game goal. Here:

And that peoples interests/motivations can’t be changed:

And yet:

So my question is this:

How do you get people whom are primarily interested in productivity, interested in PvP by meshing productivity with PvP without it being ‘productive’?

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Lol the funny thing is CCP has been specifically catering to risk averse high-sec PvE players for close to 10 years but it’s never enough for you guys. You honestly should all be playing a single player game. If you’re only here for the terrible PvE content then you are nothing but a leech.

They don’t want to play a single-player game, because in a single-player game, there’s no one to validate their efforts. Let’s say there’s a single-player space game that’s close to EVE in its design. So what will these people do there? They’ll mine for a few hours, and then…sell their ore to an NPC buy order. And they’ll feel no satisfaction doing that, because it’s a completely hollow and meaningless act. Taking EVE’s PvP aspect (e.g. blowing up a ship) and translating it into a single-player experience would be equally as hollow and meaningless.

The reasons why people play single-player games aren’t the same as the reasons why people play multi-player games. No one talks about this because it feels like a cringe moment to acknowledge this distinction, but validation is a major aspect of the satisfaction we get from playing multi-player games.

That’s why carebearism is a symptom of a very broken game design philosophy as far as EVE is concerned. Players who exclusively PvE want to receive validation from other players (in the form of demand for their economic output), but at the same time don’t want to themselves be affected by the activities of other players. The fact that the game makes it seem like players can actually get away with this, when in fact they can’t, and shouldn’t, is emblematic of EVE’s design flaws, and the way it’s marketed.

EVE needs to be marketed as an open-world survival game, and not a “sandbox,” because the latter creates the wrong impression for a lot of people.

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Destiny has a point in that last post of hers…

Ppl want to feel useful…in games like EvE, when they do not…they get bored, when they get bored…they look elsewhere, when they do that…they quit EvE.

100% agree.

I like how you broke it all down and called it all ‘opinion’ then attacked it with ‘your opinion’… pressing that “your” opinion is the correct one. The OP’s post was correct, sorry your opinion doesnt align with it. But im sure the 35+ likes on it are 35+ peoples opinions that do align with the post…

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There’s a lot of good thought in that post. However people have a tendency to try to boil issues down to one or two causes and skim over the reality that people do things for a multitude of reasons.

I believe players engage in EVE because it feels edgy, it makes news, it’s got big battles, it’s got a supposedly ‘deep and complex’ economy, it’s long-term, it’s space/sci-fi, it’s got pretty graphics, it’s said to be hard-core, it’s said to be easy to AFK, it’s supposed to offer many different careers, etc. etc. And of course for a lot of players, they play simply because they’ve put thousands of dollars into the game and don’t want to walk away from that.

Sound game design takes all of these motivations into mind and puts some reason/reward into play for as many of them as possible. It’s not as simple as “PvPers vs. carebears”. There’s room in the game for all those playstyles.

What CCP is well aware of, and most of the “OMG CCP is so totally catering to the demands of high-sec carebears” crowd can’t get through their heads, is that CCP is well aware of just who pays for subs, and what those people are doing with their EVE time. And the vast majority of it isn’t PvP. When 70% of your player base is paying for and playing PvE/resource building, CCP draws the obvious conclusion and makes more of the game focused on that group.

The greatest trick that CCP ever pulled was convincing the small minority of PvPers that EVE was intended for them and getting them to keep playing (and thereby making the rest of the game relevant) even though EVE isn’t really designed for PvP.

The whole “there are too many carebears, we have to get rid of them or force them to PvP” mindset is woefully wrong-headed. The actual fix relies on “how can we get more PvPers in the game, and get more players to PvP more often, without sacrificing the economy/PvE/productive players that have been paying for the game all along?”.

You don’t fix the game by driving off the majority of your players, or tossing in NPCs to create the destruction that the PvPers are uninterested/incapable of doing. You fix it my making PvP more attractive - again on multiple fronts, not just in ISK rewards.

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+1

I want to be able to show off my achievements and efforts and I want to be able to see and acknowledge other’s achievements and efforts. What’s the point of achieving something in a single player game? I personally don’t see it.

You’re projecting and pigeonholing, in a way that very much suits your personal beliefs and narrative. Doesn’t matter how many paragraphs you type, it’s obvious and no one falls for it.

It’s a little bit weird how the PvP crowd consistently only sees one element of the game as valid, consistently belittles and puts down any other playstyle, and yet also consistently accuses me of having “one secret agenda, only my own little viewpoint, and nobody’s buying it”.

Strangely, they don’t have any facts to back this up, just “we’re onto you and your carebear plots!” statements.

Guys, seriously, you’re a minority element in the game. I’m seeking to expand that minority (while also fixing other elements of the game). You’re not special, you’re not awesome, you’re not the reason for EVE. Get over yourselves or be prepared to remain a small yet noisy niche within a niche, which is slowly being replaced by NPCs because they’re better at destruction than you are.

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Again with this nonsense. Against my better judgement, and only for the sake of others, I’m going to reply to this before going back to doing my best to ignore your posting:

Were you here for the first decade of the game? It was developed with PvP, in fact mostly power-driven, non-consensual PvP, in mind during that time. There was no question, and no ambiguity, with regard to for whom this game was intended. Stop misleading people with your fictional preferred narrative.

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Of course. I was here for the very first announcements, although it was some time before I broke off from other games and started playing.

The difference here is, I can tell the difference between marketing blurbs and videos, and the reality of what’s actually happening in the game on a daily basis. And PvP’s always been a small portion of the playerbase in terms of actual game population and activity. Every MER, QEN and CCP published statistic proves it.

All you’ve got is “oh hey we used to be huge at PvP back in the day, take my word for it, I was there!”. We’ve already seen how accurate those statements of yours are.

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Sure, but what Destiny wrote is correct, even though how we as players interact with the game is (and always has been), different.

This is true. PVP isn’t the only activity and never has been, but was a core driving principle from the games early development.

Here for example in an interview from 2007, is a quote from the first person that took on the Senior Producer role (as an official position in the business):

“The founders had two passions which they wanted to join,” explained Richardsson. “The sci-fi feel and vastness of space from Elite and the social interaction of massively multiplayer and player vs. player gaming from Ultima Online . I should also add that they were quite active PvPers in UO and this is the main reason for our emphasis on PvP . We feel that the emotions involved with losing something of value is just as important as gaining something of value, it makes a very immersive experience. There have to be lows to make the highs more enjoyable. PvP allows us to achieve that.”

Reductionism to the “PVP Crowd” doesn’t help. There isn’t just one PVP mindset, just as PVP isn’t the only activity in the game (there needs to be something of value gained through time/effort and production, for loss to have meaning), but that doesn’t make Destiny’s post incorrect.

Both production and destruction are needed. One without the other won’t work in EVE, where it does work in other games, because EVE is designed to support a broad range of playstyles, including PVP, even if you personally don’t find the same level of engagement or depth in that playstyle as others do.

But trying to change the game to be what you think PVP should be like is doomed to failure (and thankfully so). None of us have a monopoly on being right.

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Kezrai_Charzai - Best user post in playing 15 years of EvE Online, your post linked at the bottom.

In 2007 I worked in a UK games studio with 120 employees ( working on PvP games ), during lunch break 20 staff played EvE. They all where miners and mined together to chill in their work break. CCP should fight bots 100%, it was and is the bots which mucked up the game + CCP trying to do other games, instead of working only on EvE Online.

CCP crushing fun in trade, fun in industry and fun in chilled player mining is the developers symptom fighting, the cause are ISK making bots since a decade and 10-100 accounts script automated multiboxers. Lets see how the game is in 2040. All activities in the game should be fun for all players.

P.S. I`m a station trader with 10-20 Omegas. I probably spent usd1000 usd with ccp over time.
I do not condone RMT trading or other CCP violations, but my guess is that if CCP would allow ISK sales via USD on their CCP website, where CCP would take a usd% transaction margin, active player amounts and CCP corporation income could ten fold. This could work as a good player experience if CCP would achieve a game state of 0% ingame bots, a dream :slight_smile:

Here you go.
https://secure.eveonline.com/PLEX/

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