Was that me? Or are you lumping me in with Mizhara just because I happen to agree with her larger conclusion: that peace isn’t going to get us anywhere, and our people are running out of time?
Well, you know, sometimes it takes twenty or so paragraphs to get the discussion around to that, especially when it starts off on the fringes with things like ‘I know we don’t have forever but…’
But ok. I apologize for ‘making claims that are impossible to refute without twenty or so paragraphs’. That’s what discussion is to me: you lay things out, and then the other person lays things out, and you go back and forth looking at all aspects and angles of a thing, in depth and in detail. It’s never a facile or quick thing, and it’s not a thing that gets covered in three or four paragraphs if you want to do it any justice.
And that principle extends all the way to ‘so which bolt should I use for this joint?’ Really, my maintenance chief on Sinner Ascendant and I had the ship more or less confined to the Keepstar for six weeks earlier this year while we looked into original parts vs a newer bonding technique that would require an additional adjustment to wiring layouts in the pod bay.
Edit: If you don’t believe me, ask Miz! She’ll tell you straight up that one of the things that she hates in me is the way I focus in on a small details and ‘over-analyse’ them. She’ll accuse me of moving the goalposts when I’m really just drilling down on one small aspect of a thing, or trying to change the subject when my brain makes a weird connection and I shift a little to what I think is a related issue, but she clearly doesn’t.
Samira can vouch for that, too, really. I dunno, maybe my brain just works strangely?
You’re the one contradicting yourself by at first stating you are, “all Matari” and then saying there is no single Minmatar ethnicity. Either there is commonality of identity being Matari or Minmatar, or there is not.
Matari are people who are part of the Minmatar culture. Minmater covers everyone of the related genetic groups. Thus a foreigner who has been accepted into a clan & undergone Voluval may be Matari but not Minmatar.
Of course there are the more conservative clans that would reject this view and say no non-Minmatar may be one of us.
I am a child of two tribes. My father is Brutor, my mother was Sebiestor. I am a full member of my mother’s clan and an associate member of my father’s, rather younger, clan. It is also the case that the more conservative clans would consider this to be wrong.
Federal non-citizens cannot vote in Federal elections; although resident aliens can vote in local member-state elections, which usually are considered more important in terms of representation.
Not really, no. In terms of identity, I’d say most identify with their local state.
And Federal citizens have a history of Democratic government, do they not? Of identifying themselves as Federal citizens on the international stage? Of being represented by the Federation, not (for example) by the city of Caille or the Intaki system… there’s no Jin-Mei rep to CONCORD, is there?
The Federation is the government, agencies, and bureaucracy designed to manage affairs between its member-states. While it might represent particular polities with strong ethnic identities, such as the Intaki or Jin-Mei, among others, the Federation itself does not represent one ethnic identity over all others. Even if some might point out the Gallente in Gallente Federation as an ethnicity, they would fail to recognize that the closest translation of Gallente in current Federal vernacular is simply, “human” or “person” thus the Gallente Federation is essentially: Human Federation.
As for there being no Jin-Mei rep to CONCORD, I’m sure there have been those either past or present who have ethnically identified as Jin-Mei while serving representative responsibilities to CONCORD on behalf of the Federation.
Furthermore, aside from capsuleers, and other occupations that require interstellar interactions, the vast majority of Federal citizens probably won’t self-describe their identity as being a Federal citizen.
And among ourselves, we don’t self-describe as ‘Matari’ or ‘Minmatar’. Mizhara and I are both of the Sebiestor Tribe. When we’re among others of our people, say, Brutor or Thukkers, we’re not ‘Matari’, we’re ‘Sebiestor’. If she and I are the only ones involved in a situation, or it’s among a group who are all Sebiestor, there’s a distant kin-level connection, but we’re not identifying as ‘hey, you’re a Seb, I’m a Seb!’. She is Gripdjur, and I’m Stjörnauga. Unless, you know, there’s capsuleer politics involved, in which case, everything else gets over-ruled by ‘you’re a Goon’.
I mean, ethnically, I’m Stjörnauga. That ethnicity is part of a larger network of interrelated bonds, though… and really, if I said I was Stjörnauga without the context, would that tell you anything at all about me?
Point is, I think you are oversimplifying in your reductionist attempts to insist on how special the Gallente Federation is.
Considering that you are a professional curmudgeon (not the word I wanted to use, but I’d lose my forum posting priviledges otherwise), I find that extremely hard to believe, but I’ll take your word for it this one time.
It was aimed in separate parts at both of you. Obviously I could have separated whom I was referring to with which, but I figured you’d be smart enough to infer it by yourselves.
I mean, you’re not wrong, it is a topic that deserves in-depth discussion, and too much of the past several messages has been focused on going back and forth between me and her. Perhaps I am too easily irritated by Mizhara and need to develop more willpower to ignore her. Well, I accept my part of the blame in starting this, but I simply could not watch her badmouth the Ray like she did.
As for making claims that are impossible to refute without lengthy posts - if I had the free time that I used to, this would not annoy me as much. But, to me long discussions are hard, it takes me a long time to fully understand what was said (and even then, I apparently misinterpret things), and even longer to draft a response. So much so that believe it or not, I’ve spent the vast majority of my free time in this thread in the past few days. Just for those handful of messages. I don’t know. It feels like I’ve slowed down somehow from my prime. Do I need to pod myself? Is this clone too old?
Anyway. Long discussions on hard topics aren’t a bad thing. But when you pulled up experts for example, that felt like, “how can I debate that?” I couldn’t, besides maybe calling you a damn liar, experts I know disagree, and noting that “experts” have been wrong before. And I wasn’t in the mood of starting to pretend I’m an academic debater when I’m not.
Anyway, I apologize for being a sour mood and taking it out on you, Arrendis.
Can vouch for Miz’s normal conversational style being easy to take as more vicious than intended.
Doesn’t help. I’m 18 days old and I have the same problems sometimes.
That’s fair. I brought it up because, you know, I’ve gone talking to people, and didn’t want to just seem like I was pontificating on my own assumptions. You’ve spoken to people and come away with a different impression. The world is wide, there’s room for that. Happens all the time.
When the Bloody Hands of Matar conducted a terrorist attack on a peace conference at the Egonbet Republic Parliament station in YC109, murdering forty-two people including the Ammatar Consulate ambassador Faulk Stian, what was the reaction of the Empire compared to the Republic’s decision-making surrounding Midular’s assassination?
Did the Amarr send an armada of Revelation-class dreadnaughts into the border systems of the Republic? Did they demand their own personnel conduct an investigation? Were there accusations that the RSS or other security forces allied to the Republic permitted the Bloody Hands to circumvent security protocols? Was the Ambassador not under guest right by being promised safe passage into hostile territory to conduct a peace conference? Did the Ambassador not die whilst under Republic hospitality?
I seem to recall that instead of a ham-fisted approach, which I am certain that the Ammatar’s were undoubtedly outraged and incensed that one of their top political figures was murdered by a band of villains whilst on a diplomatic mission, the Mandate and the Empire agreed to the Republic launching an internal investigation utilising the RSS to scrutinise and instigate a crackdown on known terrorist subversives and cells responsible or related to the act of terror that claimed forty-two lives.
If a hostile state could afford such a courtesy to a bitter enemy, despite the considerable and vehement hatred that is apparent in that relationship, then why did the Republic see fit to effectively commit an act of war against their oldest ally in the name of blood and kin? It is not patronising nor belittling in the slightest to at least be expected to have good faith in the ability of a state, especially that of an ally that has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo between you and themselves, to conduct an investigation into a domestic terror incident.
Show me where people have said ‘OMG, the Republic was totally right to do that and it wasn’t a colossal screw-up!’
See, I’m asking because the point’s been made repeatedly that nobody really thinks it was a great idea, and that when you go and lecture people about something they not only know, but actually said already during this conversation, well… that’s exactly the patronizing crap we’re talking about.
I only pointed out that the ethnic identity of the Minmatar plays a significant role in the functions of the state of the Minmatar Republic; that the ethnic identity of the Caldari plays a significant role in the functions of the state of the Caldari State; and that the ethnic identity of the Amarr plays a significant role of the functions of the state of the Amarr Empire.
The majority ethnicity in the Caldari State is Caldari.
The majority ethnicity in the Minmatar Republic is Minmatar.
The majority ethnicity in the Amarr Empire is Amarr.
Those who identify as Gallente don’t even represent an ethnic majority within the Gallente Federation at about 30-40% of the population.
The Federation still remains alone as a multi-ethnic polity which represents the interests of those who identify ethnically as Minmatar, Caldari, Amarr, Jin-Mei, Intaki, Mannar and more besides – or not at all. I am unsure what the point of contention is on that fact?
‘Minmatar’ is a conglomeration of hundreds or thousands of ethnicities, not a single, monolithic ethnicity. As I said, it’s not ‘a’ culture, it’s at least seven (and it’s really seven amalgams of hundreds or thousands of cultures), all conflicting with one another. And if you want to go with the ‘or nation’ part of the definition, then it applies just as legtimately to citizens of the Federation, who have a common history, tradition, and culture of Democratic government that extends back at least 250 years.
Anyone who thinks the location of somebody’s birth somehow impairs them, is an idiot.
This goes both ways.
Nobody chooses where or how they are born, and where they are born does not dictate their ability to understand the perspectives of others. Not unless they let it.
Birthplace is not what matters. It’s what you were raised in. There are some things you can’t understand without having experienced it, and being raised a slave is one of them. To know from your very first tentative reaches for understanding of the world, that you are cattle. Property. A thing. This shapes you. It changes your thinking. Your view of the universe.
It has nothing to do with where. It’s got everything to do with what and how.
If you are freeborn, you will never know the other. If you are a slave-child, you will never truly understand the mind of a freeborn. Both are formed around two opposite core experiences.
This is just inescapable, and important to be cognizant of. If you think culture clash is a problem, (which it demonstrably is in a lot of cases) then being fully aware of this inherent difference between slave-children and freeborn should be a priority rather than something to be dismissed.
I would like to point out that I was uncharacteristically agitated the last two days and said things I should not have, and normally would not have. Considering on top of that, I was debating Mizhara, who kept hammering the “freeborn freeborn freeborn”, I was not going to assume non-belligerence on her part. I felt she was not only attacking me, but all Minmatar who were born free, through the efforts of our foremothers and forefathers.
I am not saying how I acted was right, but, in the theme of this thread, and the emotional involvement often inherent in inter-Minmatar debates, I felt it a justified response at the time.
