The Havoc content, in it’s current form will physically and mentally hurt players if continued

Arguments are not invalid, even if the person making that argument is a bad person. I doubt Brisc is a horrible cheater, he clearly loves the game.

I think the pressure is pretty similar. There are maybe not that many people involved but for the few people involved it’s basically a fight for survival. It’s probably pretty similar to a small alliance having
SOV in one system and suddenly a much bigger alliance moves in next door.

Just that in our case CCP just teleports a bigger group to our doorstep every few weeks now randomly :smiley:
I’m not sure yet if that will impose a serious risk to our infrastructure or if it will help getting more people into PVP and actually benefit our alliance in the form of additional content.

But if it’s not for survival it’s for other means. For example I’d like to defend every highsec system just for the sake of wanting to help casual highsec players who might live there and would feed to the pirates if their system turns lawless. Abudban showed that Highsec players can’t be protected from themselfes if there is anything out of the ordinary so somebody needs to protect them. =^_^= and this is my holy duty imposed by bob.

This is a pretty level take, though I don’t necessarily agree with all of it.
I think this is a particularly reasonable observation:

I play for Angels right now, and I think the problems with the FOB that cause us to not use the FOB happens to have the same solution as to the lack of risk to the pirates on the front line.

The literature for the Pirate factions pretty strongly insinuates that the FOB is supposed to be the place we deposit our loot to have it teleported back to ZZ at the end of a successful insurgency. However, anything we leave in the FOB gets asset-safetied locally instead, so no one bothers using it to any serious degree.

I think two changes would help balance the field a bit:

  • Items on deposit should immediately deliver to The Fulcrum at the end of a Pirate WIN
  • Items on deposit in the FOB should get asset safetied to local on the full cooldown in event the FOB is destroyed by Empire

The first gives a means for Pirates to use the FOB for logistics to and from ZZ, making ZZ a more reasonable staging system for the faction rather than the veritable ghost town of industrial alts using it to squeeze margin out of the pirate BPCs. This also means utilizing the FOB as a logistics hub creates opportunity for blockades by Empire, and more fleet fights on and around the FOB.

The second, puts some skin on the field for the Pirate factions to counterbalance any assets that get asset safetied and put on cooldown when upwell stations are destroyed in the warzone. I stop short on suggesting item loss, because empire factions could choose to use the NPC stations instead to minimize their own risk, and can move stations farther from the WZ to avoid corruption reffing. But if other players, even neutral corps have to deal with asset safety timers as a result of corruption, then its only fair the pirate faction should be able to be denied access to material for the duration as well.

I think in general, this gives the Empire more reason to focus on the FOB, declare a temporary truce to deal with the pirates, or end up with a 3-way fight on the FOB which would be fun for everyone, level the playing field a bit, and encourage more utilization of ZZ for its intention as indicated in the lore.

On another topic, I think all Factions need a station near the WZ that provides a bonus to their faction BPC manufacturing similar to The Fulcrum with the Pirate hulls. Maybe consider allowing additional ME to be payed down with LP.

And probably my biggest gripe: requiring Trigger Units for the pirate hulls is absurd. It nearly doubles the cost of manufacturing when their Empire counterparts are on-par or better in performance and require more easily attained inputs. It seems the pirate factions were modeled on the input requirements of the SoE ships, but imho the stats don’t come close to justifying the cost. I’d like to see them reworked to match the other empire input requirements.

I wished more were like you. I was there a lot didn’t see much action. Lots of lps from mostly uncontested plex runs. I wanted to fight real things more though.

Now if memory serves I had a funny death. Its been a while since the backup to the tackle was a broadsword. My frigates are so feared I rated hic’s bringing the dps!

I think for that run min mil just chilled after they suppressed ossogur. Granted it was a well earned rest after a good solid win there for them.

Empire FW jsut gets screwed here. Pirates sneeze and the % bar moves. Empire fw works harder for peanuts % tick wise.

Warp scrambling is probably the number 1 reason people dont PVP. So if you truly want more people to PVP you should remove warp scrambling.

Adding additional inputs such as Trigger Units to make a ship does not accomplish much it seems. What is the difference between farming trigger units or farming tritanium? the difference is marginal. but when it comes to economy and industry its detrimental due to liquidity getting thinner across mats and logistics getting worse. The increased complexity in manufacturing is a contributing cause for centralization in Jita. CCP in their infinite wisdom decided to put a tax in systems with lots of player activity to counter-act this. And they keep increasing it expecting different results. Its pathetic?

OP the Bosboger insurgency has just begun. It’s been 57 days since the last insurgency affecting Dammalin. There weren’t any forum posts in the past 24 forewarning hours to lament the situation (again). The Minmil fleets I see aren’t trying to protect Dammalin but are feeling good enough to appear to be trying to suppress the FOB home system of Bosboger itself, as I type! Perhaps this thread was premature…

Not quite.

The last few weeks had several to FW, to include a significant change to improve the situation on the Jan-16 patch with the Ambition stuff.

Though I’m sure the numbers have dropped down as per usual once people burn themselves out on the first iteration of the new game mechanic that gets added, which has likely also impacted things.

OP couldn’t know how algos warfare was going to turn out.

Not many bring fleet bs’ to this either. No content here really has one go let me bring out a few fleet bs’ just in case.

There are 2 types of people in fw as I see it. The people who know how just bad a bash op goes with no dreads. So we avoided it.

And those who will learn shortly jsut how much it sucks.

I was the fomer. I did pre fozzie sov POS bashes in a space poor alliances. Not many dreads or sometimes none at all. Painful…is one way describe that.

Current evidence suggests Ambition is a non-factor. See below.

For the record, I believe “algos warfare” to be a red herring.

This current insurgency, MinMil didn’t just suppress Dammalin – which was the impetus for this thread being started in the first place. Minmil put in the elbow grease and went above and beyond in suppressing 7 systems (their goal) before Angels could even corrupt 7 systems (which is below our goal ignoring Ambition):


If there is indeed an unhealthy relationship between gamer and game in Minmil, I want to call out that it is not due to any inherent mechanics. It isn’t due to Algos warfare and it isn’t due to Ambition.

There are numerous reasons to balance Havoc. I think it would be of great benefit to that discussion, if we could finally put the nail in the coffin of “gamer’s mental health”. It’s a non-reason and exists to simply be divisive, not productive.

Moving on beyond that. To recap the issues with insurgencies that I am aware of.

Some deal with High Sec mechanics or weird design choices:

  • Stations in high sec defending themselves have safety green so often can’t shoot desired targets
  • Playing logi in high sec will give killrights to friendly militia mates that you rep (due to accidents like using the wrong drones)
  • The Super Gate guns don’t actually shoot pirates because they shoot Unlawful combatanants and militia warfare is Lawful Warfare; it’s useless for militia folks

Then there are also other issues:

  • FOB is borderline useless to everyone. Pirates don’t use it for logistics in a meaningful way, and it being destroyed is not a motivating reason for empire militias. (IDK why Minmil put in the elbow grease this time, but they have my respect for doing it).
  • Zarzakh has projection problems; CCP “addressed” it by last-minute enabling bubbles which:
    • Does not address projection issues, and
    • Increases the pain tolerance required for living there – it already would have had high pain tolerance merely given the shipcaster’s limitations (but shipcasters are a whole separate discussion)
  • Direct Enlistment as a mechanic does not mesh well with the standings mechanic penalties associated with blue-on-blue violence.
  • FOBs making militia Rearguard systems 99% contested when successfully defended means empire militias are instead incentivized to not defend it (and instead do the cap-recap shuffle).
  • Much of the Insurgency UI works against showing actually useful information:
    • Angel FOB I believe is vulnerable right now, but nothing in the UI indicates that and there’s no timer
    • Concentric circles and white/grey for suppression/corruption stages don’t say anything
    • If a system goes from Corruption 5 to Corruption 4 due to hitting Suppression 5, that information is lost forever. It just looks like it only progressed to Corruption 4.
    • Many other nitpicks

Then there are the recent issues:

  • Insurgency zones have audio issues that are causing hangs and crashes
  • Ice sites are bugged (this is secondhand knowledge to me), possibly due to cloud rendering changes? IDK.

These conversations are much more interesting to have.

We also have an infighting problem on Angels side – FRT (and to a lesser extent Goons) likes to blue-on-blue or neutral-alt-on-blue, but that is a whole separate issue that exists independent of game mechanics and is a symptom of there not really being an independent militia culture established that can punish this gameplay.


Yeah there are some issues. I was on and pushing vard for suppression. 100% does not mean…100%. We had to run an extra plex to make it 101% I guess lol.

And yeah the lack of trust can hurt. I was angels. Hey guys let’s do things.

See names. See…a long history of team killing. Hahahah, yeah no. I had them on let them die list really. Fool me once shame on them. Fool me twice…is not happening.

Edit. I dc’d twice to audio bug till I turned it off too lol.

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Insurgency Spread mechanics need to be changed. Especially since we’ve had 2 insurgencies back-to-back in the same area, burnout will definitely be a thing. Everyone in Minmil pushed to get Dammalin to suppresion 5 in the latest insurgency but Suppression effects only stop corruption from passing 4 and now Alakgur has an insurgency, and Olfheim has an insurgency before Dammalin even got to corruption 3. That is such an unbalanced mechanic if all it takes is pirates getting to 3 elsewhere to spread the insurgency to non-adjacent systems and minmil has to get all the way to 5 just to secure a single system with no additional positive effect… the Suppression 5 mechanic should stop corruption from progressing past 3 instead of 4, or at least it should at ensure adjacent systems can’t have insurgencies.

Yeah I think there should be a system that the FOB can not spawn in initial systems of the last FOB spawn.

I honestly think the whole FOB-mechanic needs a rework.
FOBs should spawn anywhere, not only in the Warzone. I see some potential with them spawning in Nullsec and leave empty SOV behind or something like that after FOB-staging mechanics work for the pirates.

Having this permanent pirate-layer above the FW mechanic just splits the FW groups… some only care about fighting pirates, some only care about fighting the enemy militia.

I haven’t shot a single Amarr in ages! and I’m really mad about it
This is my killboard and I have nothing to do with those Nullsec-farmers. I want to shoot Amarr, that’s why I signed up in the militia, but I can’t because these pirates feel more like a real threat to the Minmatar Republic and I can’t even leave my staging and get to the warzone without meeting multiple pirate targets.