Time for less space


(Ocean Ormand) #1

Unfortunately eve is now at a place where concurrent logons are at 2007 to 2008 levels. In fact, since a significant portion of the current community is likely alphas, there are probably even less subscribers online at any given time then there were in 2007-2008. Although the game is seeing significantly lower online player numbers, we however still have a 2017 eve universe. As a result, players are spread thinner in the game then ever before.

I submit that player density is a necessary part of the game, as it makes the universe seem alive and drives conflict. Spreading the population thinner and thinner is a clear detriment to the health of the game.

In most regular mmos where the population starts to contract, there are regular calls for server consolidation. Obviously, that can’t happen here since there is only one server. But since these lower numbers of players online is now the new norm and are unlikely to change, something must be done to bring players into regular contact with each other. Under these circumstances, it seems clear that we need a consolidation - a trimming of the empty, underutilized systems. Of course this will not be easy, since there is sure to be someone attached to whatever empty system is to be cut, but by bringing the space into line with the number of people actually online, the overall game experience will be improved for everyone.


(Nasar Vyron) #2

No. Period. ■■■■ no even.

If you really wanted space to seem smaller it can be accomplished by increasing warp speeds.


(Buoytender Bob) #3

I wish CCP would enable these forums with a dislike button…:-1:


(Vol Arm'OOO) #4

Given the number of roams I been on recently where nothing at all is seen alive, and the fact that the pipe i have been living in for years is basically dead, I can say that there is definitely way too much space. Either there needs to be more players or less space. And nothing ccp has done lately has brought in more players - rather the opposite has happened - so since less players is the future we need like the op said - consolidation- less space.

Hell - the same can be said for these forums - C&P, the pvp section, the new player section, are all vastly under used with hardly anyone posting new topics on any given day. An active forum is a reflection of a healthy game, eve’s forum is hardly active - and most of the topic categories could be folded together without anyone even noticing.


(Jasmine Deer) #5

Other than WH space, isn’t the 2017 Eve universe measured in terms of space much the same as the 2007 universe ?


(Mina Sebiestar) #6

All ships got warp speed buffs small ships massive ones and so on to battleships that got warp speed nerfed for nerfing sake so excluding them in my view 2017 universe is smaller / faster place to be in.

My memory is not reliable one but i do think CCP shrink some/many systems AU ranges but as i said…memory.

shrink it all you want it will matter not.


(Tiddle Jr) #7

Last time you fly @ Singularity?
Empty Amarr and Dodixie…

Lets leave just one region for high sec one for low sec and one for null, lets everyone cut everyone’s throats.

Go live to Thera.


(Kerono Thalmor) #8

As far as I’m aware, the size of the cluster hasn’t changed significantly (and it shouldn’t) since 2007-2008, but do correct me if I’m wrong. Allow me to share my humble thoughts.

This would probably make it feel more like the old days, the “frontier” days if you will; the days where one could go several systems without seeing anything living; the days when solo PVP happened.

That said, I see the problem you’re getting at. EVE is losing population. This is a serious problem that won’t reverse itself until something changes at CCP. What I think is happening is basically what happened with WiS come full-circle; they have an idea of what will make EVE (the “internet spaceships”, specifically, I believe was the term used at the time) “better” and–from my observations, at least–without bothering to truly listen to their playerbase’s input, instead suffering from a severe case of confirmation bias (or perhaps they are deafened by the CSM), ram their (ill-considered) ideas into release.

Don’t get me wrong, a lot of good things have been done; for instance, the new structures are nothing short of glorious and I love them dearly. But certain other things have, I think, fundamentally changed the nature of EVE; evidently, ultimately for the worse. Crimewatch 2.0 and the new wardec system, for example. EVE is supposed to be a sandbox, and technically, I suppose, it is; but it is a sandbox with safety nets and padded walls, neither of which should ever be put anywhere near EVE. Without risk, there can be no true reward, and EVE is quickly speeding towards a world without risk.

In addition, the adding of shortcuts to certain levels of achievement has, I think, cheapened the experience greatly. I remember people used to train for years to become capital pilots; now some fresh-off-the-clone-press noob can do it in, what, 3 months? The exact time escapes me. This was exacerbated by the skill injector system. Yes, it has a check that reduces its effect the more skillpoints you have. But that still does not change the fact that it essentially allows you to skip a huge portion of training. Rookies have it easier than ever before; and I think that this is another fundamental problem in today’s EVE. The experience has been cheapened. Surviving your first few weeks used to be as close to a badge of honor as one could have gotten at that stage, not so long ago. The universe still shat on you, though. I remember aspiring to be an EWAR pilot (which eventually, I did, not long before the skill injectors came). I planned my training path, I spent at least a year, problably more, improving and perfecting my skills and fits. Now, anyone can do it all too easily; my experience, my time spent perfecting my art, has been cheapened. I know for a fact I’m not the only one with this experience, and for a hobbyist, I can think of no greater an insult.


(Kaivarian Coste) #9

^ I like skill injectors. I’m not going to wait 3 months to fly a ship when I could download a new game off Steam and entertain myself today.

Anyway, for the last few years, the population has stabilised around 30k-35k PCU. I wouldn’t call it “dying”.

As for the OP’s suggestion, I strongly disagree. High sec is plenty crowded as it is. If you look on the warzone extraction thread, the main complaint was too many event runners and not enough sites spawning in high sec. If you want to play in populated space, there are many systems near the major market hubs that are reasonably crowded (10+ people).


(Scath Bererund) #10

Eve isnt just losing numbers. Those we have are being forced by the current nullsec mechanics to crowd together into power blocs. Areas outside the crowded locations are deadly silent


(Austin Blythe) #11

One of the main problems with EVE is that it takes too damn long to travel around. Obviously as a space MMO the virtual world should be enormous, but when you log in and see that you need to make a 20 gate jump or more it’s easy to just think “Ehhhhhhhh…” and go do something else instead. Not sure how you get around that problem, tbh. Space needs to feel big, but when you need to travel EVE’s fun had/time spent ratio is seriously out of whack.


(Patti 'Potato' Patrouette) #12

Not long back, last played 2007-2009, remember FW was just coming out and Wormholes.

Low sec loads more populated NOW, could roam for ages and not see anyone.
High sec seems more populated but less seems to be going on in local, less shenanigans.
Dunno about Null.

Before that played 2004.
Was even less populated.

Its space, there’s meant to be empty bits, and less populated bits.
Seems like I missed all the action and a big population spike.

Maybe that spike was not sustainable for 14 years, and so there is now a contraction, does not mean users on line wont grow, doesn’t mean you have to hit those levels asap or eve will die.

If eve is to survive another 14 years I would expect there to be ups and downs tbh… its such a strange thing such a long lasting game, especially when even in 2003 lots of peeps were 30+ and sometimes a lot +.

EDIT: to add, game/universe feels loads smaller, travelling seems much quicker and activities take less time in general (I remember no warp to 0, but also no ‘JUMP’ button, no multi fit- logistics just for one char used to be a nightmare- oh and now DSTs and BRs and nullified stuff- and we could warp cloaked but not many ship choices, loads of cloaks now you can fit without too much gimping etc etc).


(yellow parasol) #13

most people who come up with login numbers as argument ignore:

  • pcu is an irrelevant metric, as it only covers the US
  • MCT and the intended consolidation of characters, years ago.

the numbers from today aren’t at all comparable with the numbers from back then.


(Nana Skalski) #14

Maybe when they will introduce the gates, they wil also make the current ones in null start to deteriorate with some mechanism, so you will have to constantly supply them with materials. If not, they will be gone and only wormholes will be an option to go somewhere. :thinking:


(Patti 'Potato' Patrouette) #15

It hadn’t occurred to me that we had to have separate accounts to train, even if we didn’t multi-box, I had two accounts but now do the same with one due to mct (actually have three trained on one account).


(CowQueen MMXII) #16

Not sure how you mean that. Concurrent users are all users no matter where they live, and the daily peak is in the EU prime time/US afternoon.

Does it really matter? Less characters online means less populated space.

Indeed, much more people “playing Eve” without being logged in.

Clone jumps, jumps bridges, Alts, travel ceptors… there are enough possibilities to get around rather fast. If you suck at planning ahead and are lazy on top, no sympathies from me.


(JC Mieyli) #17

tell that to delve


(yellow parasol) #18

i don’t understand. PCU is the daily peak, which historicqlly has indeed been EU/US crossover, but that was Eu night, early night. i say it’s irrelevant, because it ignores the massive increase to around 20k average pre- and post downtime. i don’t remember 20k people logged in around that time years ago.

So saying that the game has issues, just because the PCU is lower, isn’t validö most people do believe that it’s the case, though. personally, i believe less USAmericans in the gamr isn’t a bad thing, because apparently most carebears come from there. at least that’s what i see, and the totalitarian mindset in the west has its root in the USA.

The other points you make are fair, i guess.


(Princess Gaea) #19

Well, I think it’s even more simple.

The people that started playing 14 years ago are now having a family, making careers. They have far less active accounts, play less hours and wanna play only when there’s something offered on a plate. No drama for example.

We weren’t able to refresh the player group enough during 2008-2009, they becoming vets now. 2015-2016-2017 we tried again, even with F2P, but it didn’t take hold.

What to do? Less space (notably turning off the Drone Lands again, mostly bots anyway) would concentrate people more. More conflict drivers would help as well. Push the economy into high inflation, convert all currency into new types using a logarithmic scale, aka balance the wallets. Rebalance costs. Make the game cheap-to-fly but expensive-to-master. Rebalance stuff that titans become the new battleships, introduce new classes above.

Make big changes, otherwise we’ll keep being that 2003 game that less and less people actively play.


(CowQueen MMXII) #20

Maybe not irrelevant, but of course it’s just a single value with limited meaning. I guess, most people just assume that a lower PCU means that average login numbers are down by the same amount.
I just looked at the log in numbers to find out how good 20k around downtime are compared to what it used to be. First, 20k isn’t really this good, it was considerably higher during some periods (especially in 2009, 2010 and in some periods in 2012). However, it is higher than most of the time in the last three years and the gap between around dt users and PCU seems to be relatively low at the moment (although there were times when it was similar).