To be or not to be

The real time training for character progression and just how slow and massive it becomes, is indeed terrible - i made a similar post.

I love the main reply of “training doesn’t mater, pilot skill does” like character training does absolutely nothing, unlike the massive differences in stats and equipment and so huge impact it has still. Lets both me - a relatively new player and a 15+ year vet jump in the same battleship - me on a max traninig character with all stats maxed and them on an alpha completely new account with no stats or skills and see just exactly how that goes and how unimportant training skills is : D

Just one of those fanciful arguments that sounds cute in theory.

Can’t say i blame them though, there isn’t really any other good arguments to be made against it.

This games character progression is extremely slow, completely non-interactive, absolutely 0 challenge and you can coincidentally speed it up by paying even more than you already did with your sub.

Terrible archaic system is terrible.

P.S real time training is great for people with little time like people with fulltime jobs, but then you can also pay to increase your progression - also good for people with little time. But what about people that do have alot of time to spend on the game and enjoy doing so? What do they get, a shrug?

So who are more believable in this argument?

A self-proclaimed “relative new player” or people who actually have had some solo PvP experience?

Believing skills are the most important aspect of PvP is pretty easy to think, if one have never actually done any PvP in eve. Comparing stats on a pyfa fit is not PvP.

Anyway, even if stats were the be-all-end-all, we have skill injectors. Getting the relevant skills injected to lvl 5 for one specific ship and fit, does not even require that much.

But if you are convinced that you need all lvl 5’s to win a fight and your piloting skills are not an issue, then I can’t really convince you otherwise. It’s like trying to convince someone that the reason they are in wood league in a ranked game is because they are bad at the game, not because the game or teammates are holding them back from going pro.

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Who said skills “are the most important aspect of pvp” exactly?

What we’re saying is pilot training makes a huge difference, as does player skill yes, but a ton of base stat increases? A ton of Power and CPU for much better versions of equipment? Being able to base use much better equipment?

Also massively impactful.

It’d be like saying in WoW “Pfft level cap of 120 doesn’t matter, player skill does, your level 30 character should be able to kill the level 120”

While yes you’d survive that much longer being better, timing your cc and burst and countering their skills and timing diminishing returns on said cc, etc, it’s still a silly concept…

Depends on what you mean by “huge”. It has a difference, but less than what you seem to express.

It is more important, to take proper fights against ships you counter, i.e. knowing your engagement profile.

The skill system in eve can definitely not be compared to how a WoW lvl 120 vs lvl 30 character fight would work. Having you think that it can be compared to eve PvP, makes it hard to have this discussion, since it tells me you have had little experience with proper eve PvP. And no, duelling in front of a hub or sun at 0 is not how eve PvP normally works.

Obviously higher skills have some influence, but it is not nearly as big a difference as this whole thread wants it to be. The sentiment in this thread wants us to believe there is something wrong with the skill system, while in reality the skill system is maybe one of the lesser problems with eve if any.

Just to drive home my point a bit further… This was a kill from some random guy on the militia chat.

He got killed by this meta fit slasher.

Clearly the rifter is better stats-wise. However, with the slashers TD and speed, he was able to tank enough to down the rifter. While I’m sure there are even better examples out there, this still proves my point that knowing how and what to engage trumps any pure stat gains from better modules.

Just had a quick look at pilot skills and the path im going down, all at level 5:

25% less capacitor use of turrets
25% less CPU use to fit turrets
10% reduced power grid needs
10% bonus to turrets rate of fire
25% bonus damage to turrets
10% bonus to turrets damage
15% damage to all weapons
25% to weapon turret fallof
25% improved targeting speed
25% weapon range

-Now, consider things like that list of bonuses for your tank/defense - hull or shield
-That list of bonuses for ewar offense
-That list of bonuses for ewar defense
-That list of bonuses for drones
-Being able to fly T2 and T3 versions of ships as well as bigger ships
-That list of bonuses for maneuverability, speed and overall ship agility
-As well as taking into account again the use of better base stat equipment
-Bigger versions of most of the equipment, because of:
-That list of bonuses to CPU/Power, as well as modules’ use-reduction of them

Etc. Big difference. Not more important, but just as.

I get this game is very rock paper scissor and you can beat your opponent due to skill (your build countering theirs from the start, i bet is a bigger contributing factor…) but 9/10 times unless they’re medically braindead…

Can zkillboards or whatever show pilots skill trainings? Any money says there are little if no situations where say an average level 2 trained pilot killed a level 5 trained pilot, or similar outcomes that you guys make it sound like regularly happens (without actually being to know 100% unless again you can see other peoples training.)

And the general population isn’t all that good at pvp, let’s be honest, which is probably where most of these glory kills come from. Like going on a kill spree in random battlegrounds in other games, but not so much in the arena/ranked…

I bet there would definitely be little record of a much lower trained player killing a good higher trained player…

no zkill doesnt show SP. i have seen frigate pilots take out carriers

It is very rock paper scissors. With experience, you are able to know what engagements you can take. Increasing your rate of success. This knowledge and experience, knowing your limits of your ship is what is more important than raw skills.

Sure, a T1 frig cannot kill all ships. It’s a 10M T1 ship after all. It will have problems against dessies and AFs. However, I’d engage a sniper fit tornado anytime in any T1. If I manage to get under their guns, he is dead to whatever. Or maybe having a scram kite T1 against some blaster comet. Easy kills.

And yes, a lvl 2 average trained pilot can easily kill a lvl 5 if the pilot knows what he is doing and the fits favor the lvl 2 pilots.

But again, getting ones relevant skills to level 3 or 4 does not take long. The longest training time is from 4 to 5. And the difference between a lvl 4 skilled and lvl 5 skilled is not big enough to justify the sentiment in this thread.

Anyway, solo PvP is probably where skills have the biggest influence on a fight. So maybe solo PvP is not the best way to learn to PvP, nor argue about the relevance of skills. Solo PvP is quite niche and is rumored to be dead. So this whole discussion has been pretty pointless.

There are a number of newbie friendly PvP corps out there, where your :poop:fit T1 frig is still going to perform just fine when in a swarm of others.

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You say it does not take long to get to lv 4. Ok.
How long does it take to achieve Lv4 for lets say rifter?

Are we talking mastery? I’ve already mentioned that metric is useless.

I’ve done a fair share of solo PvP in the Rifter and I don’t even have mastery level 4.

Anyway, probably doesn’t take more than maybe 2-3 weeks to get relevant skills to level 4. I have no specific number, since I’m honestly not going to spend several hours to figure it out precisely just to win in a forum debate. I rely my opinion on my experience of PvP and I’m not going try to sway your opinion. I’m just stating that your opinion is wrong according to my experiences for any random newbie reading this.

As I’ve stated in the above post. Solo PvP is probably one of the most skill intensive forms of PvP in general. And it being pretty niche to begin with, it is a bad benchmark to serve as how viable skills are for newbies. So you don’t want to join a corp to fleet up. That’s a fine choice. It is however a conscious choice made specifically to set oneself at a disadvantage for the additional challenge and freedom. That is just the way of solo.

It takes much, much more than 2-3 weeks. Now i am researching “weapon upgrades 4” and it takes 3 days and 8 hours for alpha.

Do you need weapon upgrades 4 for a rifter fit though? Don’t have pyfa installed, so can’t check required skills for some fits at the moment.

But again, solo PvP is consciously setting yourself at a disadvantage. Since you don’t want to team up, then you just need to accept that is how solo is. You put yourself at this disadvantage, this is not a balance issue with the game. Just like playing a battle royal game solo is also supposed to be more challenging than being teamed up with 3 others.

Best ship is friendship.

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This is only true if people google how to fit their ship optimally and do it that way only (Meta), people are
a lot more creative :] and will destroy that misconception very easily:

Rock paper Scissors is weak sauce idea of balance, and eve lets you break out of that every now and then unless its Rapid Light missiles which are just broken.

hehe CCP does not approve of us doing this.

they did a balance pass in OCT just because we were using frigs/destroyers/cruisers in a way they didnt like stating something like we make them to work 1 job great, and it shouldnt be like that,

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You’re wrong.

it’s a bit old, you can find newer guides for alpha characters.

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No? Fits have strengths and weaknesses. There are some meta builds out there, but they also have weaknesses that can be exploited. If one type of fit is prevalent, then pilots who know how to fit their ships have always taken advantage of that, by bringing something that is strong against that specific build.

So no matter if you googled your fit or made it yourself, it will always be weak against some fits and strong against other, ergo this rock paper scissors dynamic.

Sure but your still thinking 1 of 3 meta fit’s it goes even deeper than that, there is times its worth not using a gun slot to put in a neut, or when you oversize your prop mod or dual prop or even use different weapon types to take advantage of what your enemy will try counter you with. If you know what people are thinking when they see your ship speed you can counter their counter.

Once killed a double web auto firetail in a rail harpy :] while he was orbiting at 500m was a cool fight.

I know it goes deeper, but even those off-meta builds have their strengths and weaknesses. I mean, unless your point is that crazy mad scientist off-meta builds have no weaknesses, then I suppose we are not really in disagreement.

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Haha not at all everything has a weakness like you say, what I’m trying to say is its possible to make your weaknesses something different to whats expected.

Yes, the weakness is different but it is still a weakness.

And if one intimately understands how modules work together in a ship and doesn’t just copy pasta a fit from online, then people will understand those weaknesses.

So if someone knows what crazy build some loonie has brewed in his lab (let’s say for the sake of an example, you always fly out with that 100MN Tornado, thus becoming predictable), then this trend can be countered by some other fit that is strong against the 100MN nado.

Ergo, the rock paper scissors dynamic is still upheld.

But yes, the better pilots become unpredictable by switching fits.

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